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Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D. - Guest
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D. is a licensed psychologist in California (PSY 23243) & Israel and has a private practice in Sacramento, California, with more than 40 years of experience. He is also a group analyst and Certified Group Psychotherapist. He is past President of the Israeli Association of Group Psychotherapy and of the Northern California Group Psychotherapy Society, and list-owner of the group psychotherapy professional online discussion forum. Haim was the Academic Vice-President of the Professional School of Psychology in which he created and coordinates an online doctoral program in group psychotherapy and marital therapy. He published books on Internet groups and about Fairy Tales and the Social Unconscious, and co-edited a book about the large group and a series of books about the social unconscious. He is on the clinical faculty of Psychiatry at UC Davis Medical Center and Fellow of the American Group Psychotherapy Association and of the International Group Psychotherapy Association, as well as a Distinguished Fellow of the Israeli Group Psychotherapy Association. He has received several awards including the Harold Bernard Group Psychotherapy Training Award and the Ann Alonso Award for Excellence in Psychodynamic Group Therapy. He also co-edited the books: 1. Theory and Practice of Online Therapy: Internet-delievered Interventions for Individuals, Groups, Families, and Organizations. 2. Advances in Online Therapy: Emergence of a New Paradigm. 3. The Virtual Group Therapy Circle: Advances in Online Group Theory and Practice with Arnon Rolnick and Adam Leighton. |
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W. Keith Sutton, Psy.D. - Host
Dr. Sutton has always had an interest in learning from multiple theoretical perspectives, and keeping up to date on innovations and integrations. He is interested in the development of ideas, and using research to show effectiveness in treatment and refine treatments. In 2009 he started the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, providing a one-way mirror training in family therapy with James Keim, LCSW. Next, he added a trainer and one-way mirror training in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and an additional trainer and mirror in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. The participants enjoyed analyzing cases, keeping each other up to date on research, and discussing what they were learning. This focus on integrating and evolving their approaches to helping children, adolescents, families, couples, and individuals lead to the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy's training program for therapists, and its group practice of like-minded clinicians who were dedicated to learning, innovating, and advancing the field of psychotherapy. Our podcast, Therapy on the Cutting Edge, is an extension of this wish to learn, integrate, stay up to date, and share this passion for the advancement of the field with other practitioners. |
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (00:24):
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including Family Systems, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, Motivational Interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma; and our center for ADHD and Oppositional & Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:31):
In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible.
Today I'll be speaking with Heim Weinberg PhD, who is a licensed ecologist in California and Israel, and has a private practice in Sacramento, California with more than 40 years of experience.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (02:31)
He is also a group analyst and certified group psychotherapist. He is past president of the Israeli Association of Group Psychotherapy and of the Northern California Group Psychotherapy Society and List Owner of the Group Psychotherapy Professional Online Discussion Forum. He was the academic Vice President of the Professional School of Psychology in which he created and coordinates an online doctoral program in group psychotherapy and marital therapy. He published books on internet groups and about fairytales and the social unconscious and co-edited a book about the large group and a series of books about the social unconscious. He is on the clinical faculty of psychiatry at the uc, Davis Medical Center and Fellow of the American Group Psychotherapy Association, and of the International Group Psychotherapy Association, as well as a distinguished fellow of the Israeli Group Psychotherapy Association. He has received several awards, including the Harold Bernard Group Therapy Training Award and the Ann Alonzo Award for Excellence in psychodynamic group therapy. He also co-edited the books theory and Practice of online Therapy, internet delivered interventions for individuals, groups, families and organizations, advances in online therapy, emergence of a new paradigm, and the Virtual Group Therapy Circle, advances in online group theory and practice with Arnon Rolnick and Adam Layton. Let's listen to the interview. Okay. Hi Heim. Welcome.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (03:57)
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (04:00)
Yeah, thank you so much for joining. I'm really glad to have you on 'cause the work you've been doing is really interesting. I saw the subject line that said I was wrong, and I started looking at it and it was somebody who had talked about how adamantly they felt that working in-person was much better than working remotely through telehealth. But then they referenced the book that you edited on the effectiveness of working with clients remotely through telehealth. And this is an area that I was looking for because I had done a couple sessions here and there prior to the pandemic, but then really just was blown away by how well remote therapy worked during the pandemic to the point where I actually went back in the office about a year and a half ago, and only three outta 35 wanted to come back in the office because they found it so helpful.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (04:58)
Yeah, so I was interested in some research around this, it didn't feel like there was a lot when I was searching around that was pre pandemic. But now with so much research and writing since this phenomena has happened to the world of psychotherapy, I was just so happy to happen upon your book. I would love to hear about your work and about your thoughts and the research on telehealth remote therapy in person. First I'd love to hear about the evolution of your thinking, how you got to kind of doing what you're doing here.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (05:36)
You bring up so many topics already.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (05:40)
Where do you want us to start: my evolution or more? How did I get to online therapy?
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (05:48)
Your evolution? I'm always interested in how the person's thinking evolved to where they're doing whatever they're doing now.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (05:55)
Okay. I grew up in Israel. Israel is not a place that many people like nowadays. But in my time it was a very nice place. Sure, my psychological education started in Israel. I studied the first and second degrees in Israel. I did the doctorate later, finished it in the uk, before I came to the US. Anyway, I became a clinical psychologist, licensed psychologist in Israel, in 1982. And at the same time I had a very, full, private practice in Israel, I also became very interested in group therapy. Actually my expertise is group therapy. And I became more and more experienced and trained in groups. I became what is called, outside the US group analyst.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (07:08)
It's not well-known in the US but it's a kind of a long training, like a psychoanalyst, in, individual therapy. Then I moved to the US in 2006. The US is a different culture, not only socially, but also therapeutic. I would say that I integrated my psychodynamic group analytic approaching groups with the relational approach that is in the US. Nowadays I define myself as a psychodynamic relational, or in groups, I would say group analytic relational group therapist. Okay. So this is a little bit about my professional development. if you want I can expand more about that.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (08:13)
Well, now, actually, now I'm interested. Tell me about how you, what you see as the difference between psychodynamics, psychoanalytic and relational between the two.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (08:25)
Okay. I hope that our listeners will not get bored. Sure. But the conservative psychodynamic or psychoanalytic approach, means that we look at the problems inside the patient. Okay. if you have transference because of your background and your relationship with your parents. And the therapist, even though we know that there is a countertransference, it's still something that the problems are not mine. They are yours. And we always explore your now relational psychology or relational psychodynamic psychotherapy actually, reminding us that we, the therapist, also have our unconscious and it can affect the relationship. So almost everything is a product of a co-creation of the therapist and the client. And we always have to consider not only what the patient brings to the interaction, but also how we are in this interaction.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (09:36)
Sure. Okay. So not just a blank slate.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (09:43)
That's exactly it, we are not a blank screen. Yeah. So if the patient tells me, you are criticizing me, I wouldn't say it's because of your critical father. Yeah. I would say, you know what, maybe you have a point, maybe what I said can be perceived. I am part of the interaction. Oh, great. Yeah. It's just a small example.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (10:08)
It seems like it's a little bit more of a postmodern kind of outgrowth of, you know, what we bring into the dynamic. yeah. Great. Wonderful. Okay. Okay, perfect. So psychodynamic psychoanalytic groups relational, and that's been your focus. And how's, how did that connect to the, or Well, I'll, I'll keep letting you go on the evolution before we get to the, the online.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (10:35)
We can start with the evolution of the online if you want, but, if you want, I can talk more about groups, for example, how the relational approach in a group, yeah. Manifests itself, itself. So for example, in a group, we can talk about what is called the difficult patient in the group. Okay. . , there are people, some of them might be diagnosed as borderline autistic. They become difficult patients in the group. And, along with the use of psychotherapy, we developed ways of dealing with those difficult patients. But if we look at it, relationally, there is no difficult patient without a difficult therapist or difficult group. So it's all co-created. So we need to look at what kind of behaviors either of the group therapist or the group members, encourage this problematic behavior. Sure. And it's always a group as a whole approach. . that we look not only at one person.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (11:44)
Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (11:44)
If you want another wonderful example . , the scapegoat phenomenon. Sure. It's always a creation of the entire group, and not only of the problematic person who becomes a scapegoat.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (11:59)
Yeah. But there's all, there's multiple parts that are played.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (12:03)
Exactly. Yes. And, and in theory, the group projects the disowned part, the part that they don't want to own. Yeah. Onto the scapegoat. And he or she might, or they might identify with it.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (12:18)
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Great. So it's kind of like a contextual aspect or almost like a systemic piece that plays into the manifestation of what's happening with each individual within the group.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (12:31)
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (12:32)
They're not in a vacuum.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (12:34)
Exactly. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (12:36)
Yeah. Great. That's great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (12:39)
Yeah. Cool. So let me go online because Sure. It's part of my development and part of what I do nowadays. I hope we can get to that eventually. Sure. Yeah. So first of all, I became, how would I say, involved in the online thing long before many other therapists started to be there. Yeah and one of the reasons was that in my dark past Yeah. I studied electrical engineering.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (13:19)
Ah, okay.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (13:20)
So the, you know, the internet was not a strange thing to me. And my approach to, machines and, things that technology, is easier than many other therapists, I think Sure.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (13:39)
Felt more comfortable with technology.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (13:41)
Exactly. So in 1995, when the internet was only at the beginning, I established an internet for today, a Google group, I would say. Yeah. Then it was what is called a listserv. Yeah. So I established a listserv, an international one online, about group therapy. Oh, great. And very quickly, 400, group therapists and therapists from all over the world joined and we discussed issues of group therapy. Oh, wow. and it became a very important community that I felt that it helped me develop and belong. And also for many other people Yeah. That was on this, this, discussion list still exists until today.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (14:34)
Wow. That's huge. What's it called?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (14:37)
GP Group Psychotherapy. .
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (14:39)
Okay. Oh, great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (14:40)
The GP lists .
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (14:42)
Oh, very cool. Okay.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (14:45)
That was very early.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (14:46)
Early. Yeah. Very early. I wanted to say, if anyone wants to join, it's for free. Just try to. Now, when I moved to the US I had patients that wanted to continue, from Israel . . And at that time, I tried to use Skype. . . And I must say that it was quite failing at that time, and especially in groups. Groups could not do Skype in 2006 . . so I did continue with patients on Skype, but I wasn't satisfied. . . And then around 2009, 2010, I was involved. I actually, I would say, created and directed a program. Doctorate program with a, a professional school of psychology. That was at the time in Sacramento where I live. And the program was an international one. .
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (16:00)
Focused on group therapy. . Very distinct, one. Yeah. And the students were from all over the world. We had studied a lot of students from Israel because they knew me there but also from Asia, Singapore, China, Japan. And I was looking for a good tool to do classes online. . . The idea was that teachers from all over the world teach online. Oh, great. But also combined with in person, because I was coming, I was traveling to Israel to Singapore all over Oh, wow. For workshops. And I found Zoom in 2012. Long before anyone knew what Zoom was. Yeah. And my only regret was that I didn't invest in their shares.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (17:01)
Right. That would've been a good time to invest.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (17:05)
Yes. I might have become a millionaire. Yeah. Right. and I started doing classes with my students, and it was amazing. Mm. You know, every student was at home. The teacher, the presenter were at home as well, and it was like a class.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (17:27)
Great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (17:29)
And then I thought since I was a group therapist, and, a lot of my work was with groups. How about if we try it also for group therapy? Yeah. So I first started this with my students. They had an experiential part . part of the study. And again, I was amazed; how come that it works? It looked like a group. Yeah. Everything was there. Wow. transfer resistance, group dynamics, difficult issues.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (18:03)
Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (18:04)
Yeah. So, I actually started doing online therapy and online group therapy. . long before the pandemic.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (18:16)
Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (18:18)
And I will tell you a little bit more about the kind of groups that I did. But, then in 2019, . I edited a book with a colleague from Israel. Dr. , I co-edited a book about online therapy. The book was published, less than half a year before the pandemic started. Wow. At the end of you can imagine that it became the textbook.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (18:51)
Yes.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (18:52)
For therapists, because everybody moved online. . , nobody knew how to do that. Almost nobody knew. Yeah. And they were looking for how to do it. Yeah. And our book became really a bestseller. It was translated into South Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Czech Republic, Romania, and many languages.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (19:19)
Sure.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (19:20)
Yeah. Now at that time, there was not a lot of research . . But the research that was there, showed a positive, that, that it's, it looks as if it is beneficial. Yeah. My experience was clear that it works both in online individual therapy. And also in groups. But I clarified, it was clear to me that there are obstacles and I think that I identified what are the obstacles? . , and I wrote both in my book, but also I published several articles. I wrote which obstacles we need to acknowledge and what ways we have to overcome them. Mm
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (20:26)
Because of my idea of obstacles, they are not things that prevent us. But they are things that challenge us. To find creative ideas on how to overcome them.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (20:38)
Yeah. Have to be aware of how to adjust to those for online.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (20:44)
Exactly. Exactly. Do you want me to say what the obstacles were?
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (20:49)
I would love to, actually, I was just about to ask that. Yeah. What were the obstacles that you identified? And this is pre pandemic, that you identified these
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (20:58)
Yes. Yes. They're written already in my book that was published before the pandemic . . So there are actually maybe four main obstacles. Maybe three are crucial. One is clearly the question of the setting. . . And usually what happens when someone comes, or a group comes to our office that we kind of control the setting. We have control over the setting. We decide what will be the pictures on the wall. We close the door, we put music in the waiting room. Yeah. Whatever. Online. We only control half of the setting hours. . Sure. But I see you now, and you decided where you will sit, which chair it'll be, what, which room? Whether the door is closed. . . So this creates a question about safety, confidentiality. Privacy and many other issues, because the setting is not only a practical thing. . , it's the holding environment, as we say, in therapy. So I cannot create a holding environment. . . So this is one obstacle. . . And this is an obstacle that is easy to overcome. . how by instructing the group member or the individual, patient, to create a holding environment on their own. To close the door. No one will interrupt. . . It's simple, but it's important.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (22:47)
Well, it reminds me too of, I used to do in-home family therapy work, in my internship years and going into a home and asking the family to kind of turn off the TV and let's sit over here and kind of create a setting for doing the work.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (23:04)
Exactly. And, and it's not only a practical thing, creating the setting is creating safety and holding your environment.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (23:11)
Yeah. Containing.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (23:12)
Containing, yeah. And I already put it in the agreement. . , as part of the agreement, you are going to, not, for example, not to read emails, not to look at your iPhone. Alright. So this is about the setting.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (23:35)
Yes.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (23:36)
Let's move to the second one.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (23:38)
Okay. Number two.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (23:39)
Number two is the biggest problem, which is what I call the disembodied environment, meaning something is missing. What is missing is the body. Now, it's not exactly that the body is missing. I feel my body; if I have a stomach ache, my body exists, but the body-to-body interaction is missing. A good example is eye-to-eye contact. Now, it's less crucial in individual therapy. I can still look straight into the camera. If the camera in the computer is not on the top center, I will look aside. In a group, it's even more crucial because in a group in person, when I sit down, I move my gaze from one person to another, and I hold them in my gaze. If I try to do it in a group online, they will think that something strange is happening to my head.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (25:11)
Sure.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (25:12)
So this is an example of the body to body interactions that he's really lacking online. Another example, by the way, if you co-lead in a group. Usually when I look into the eyes of my colleagues in the office, I know that they can warn me with their eyes not to go there. Online they cannot.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (25:41)
It's hard for them to catch your eye line.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (25:44)
Exactly. So, what do we do with that? You need to be creative. I don't think you totally overcome the difficulty of the body-to-body interaction. But, for example, you can ask people, "We are online. I don't know what is happening to your body. It's difficult for me to catch the signs. Can you share with me what is happening in your body?" This uses what we call the somatic experience approach online. Okay, this is one. I have others, but I see that our time is running out. So, I want to move to the next one, which is connected to the question of the body and its presence.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (26:44)
Right.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (26:44)
The difficulty is in being present. Because our connection is mediated, it doesn't feel like a presence in the room. We know that some people can break the screen by their presence, like even on TV broadcasts. We need to learn how to do that. For example, my idea is to use more self-disclosure. When I say, "What you told me really touched me, I felt your pain," I am more present. This creates a stronger connection. This is just one idea.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (27:40)
Being more engaged than because you don't have that already kind of baseline just being in the room and being engaged.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (27:49)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Again, I have more ideas, but I want to move on because there are many other things. The last thing that is less crucial is the fact that somehow online we ignore the background. So if someone enters the room, especially in a group, if it's in person, you will never ignore that. Yes. If it happens in the room of one of the group members, you sometimes do not even relate to that. So somehow if a cat comes into the room, online, you usually do not relate to that in a group. I don't think that you will avoid it. . . But this is the less important thing.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (28:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (28:40)
You wanted to ask something?
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (28:42)
No, no, that's great. So, so there's the setting, the disembodied, the presence and
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (28:48)
Ignoring the room.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (28:49)
Ignoring the room. Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (28:52)
Now, with these difficulties, the question is does it really work? And what does research say about
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (29:01)
It? Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (29:02)
So, very fortunately, there has been a lot of research since the pandemic. The research about individual therapy is very clear. There is no difference in the results of online individual therapy compared to in-person therapy. This is not from one researcher but from a meta-analysis. I'll mention just a few researchers: Simpson, Simpson and Reed, Fry, and Fernandez. All of them, I think it was 2021, conducted research showing that it works exactly the same. Now the question is, how come? And the answer is simple: What is the best predictor of good results in individual therapy?
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (30:09)
The alliance?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (30:14)
The Therapeutic Alliance. Many people do not know that the therapeutic alliance actually includes three components: agreeing about the goals, agreeing about the tasks (how to achieve the goals), and the bonding, the developing relationship. Agreeing about the goals and tasks is not a problem to do online. Two-thirds of the therapeutic alliance can easily be achieved online. Now, the question of the bonding and the relationships that develop is more complex, but research shows that the therapeutic alliance is the same, and that's why it works well.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (31:08)
Great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (31:09)
So this is what I can say, research shows that at least in the individual field, it's as effective. . . And that's why your patients told you why come to your office and, you know, commute and
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (31:26)
Exactly, yeah. Takes
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (31:27)
Time
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (31:27)
Babysitting for the kids or something like that. It was so much more convenient. I'm interested too; one thing I've found anecdotally through folks I've known or talked to is that some therapists hate it. They feel like they can't connect with the client and can't build that relationship. Other therapists are like, "I'm never going back. This has worked great." People I know who work with children are just blown away by how well it works and say they'll never go back. Other people just can't get it to work for them. Are there different therapist factors that play into this?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (32:07)
Yes. First of all, thank you for pointing it out. It's not suitable for everyone, whether you are a patient or a therapist. I assume some of it is related to the attachment style of the therapist. But I also think it is related to the modality the therapist is more sensitive to. For example, if you are visually oriented, it might be more difficult, especially in a group, to notice all the group members. If you are auditory oriented and have difficulty hearing, online therapy is for you. I hear much better with my earphones; I hear you in my head.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (33:12)
So I'm more effective because I hear better. Whether it's acoustic or visual might determine your preference sometimes. But if you are not comfortable with online therapy, don't do it. Even if it's beneficial, it won't be as good if you don't feel good. You as a therapist need to feel that it suits you.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (33:44)
Yeah. Well, and thinking back to the outcome research, there's the aspect of allegiance to whatever the therapist sees as their modality or methods of treatment.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (33:56)
There is still not enough research about the properties, qualities, and qualifications of the therapies. But we do know that many therapists felt very unprepared at the beginning of the pandemic. And still, until today, many therapists feel that they need more training in this modality, which I agree with.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (34:23)
Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (34:24)
Since there was so much research during the pandemic, we co-edited a new book that came out just half a year ago. In this book, we asked people from different therapeutic approaches, like CBT, schema therapy, ACT, and psychodynamic, to write about the obstacles they encountered and how they overcame them. I love this book because it shows how, from different approaches, they reached almost the same conclusions that I had reached before.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (35:17)
Oh, great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (35:19)
And to be sure of what is happening in a group, we also co-edited a book that came out at the beginning of this year. We did the same: we asked people from different approaches of group therapy, because there are different approaches, how they overcame the difficulties.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (35:42)
Yes, yes.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (35:43)
So we now have three books that I am involved in co-editing about online therapy.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (35:49)
Great. I've got your book and I'm just getting through the beginning. There's a general discussion around and research on online therapy, and then different chapters on individual therapy, couples therapy, family therapy, and all those pieces. It's great to see how others were able to figure it out. One aspect of our practice is that we have an ADHD center. The nuances of working with kids or adults with ADHD are important, like noticing when the client's eyes are darting around and asking, "Did something just come up on your computer? It's okay, you can take a moment to answer that."
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (36:32)
And they might say, "No, no, hold on. Sorry, let me put that away." These nuances help work with clients to be present. For myself, sometimes with the couples I work with, I don't see everything, but I can almost see minor movements. I might ask, "Did you just move your hand to put it on your partner's leg?" and they say, "Yes." It's almost like my mind is filling in the blank that I'm missing outside of the screen.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (37:03)
We have some chapters about couple therapy and different approaches to couple therapy, whether it's Gottman or Sue Johnson. EFT suggests different things about whether the couple should be on different computers or in the same room, for example. It's very interesting.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (37:34)
Definitely. I've had a couple where they sat on the corners of the table because sitting right next to each other was too anxiety-provoking. They couldn't quite see each other, and one person would get very nervous.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (37:49)
Yeah. And what do you do with high conflict couples? Because Sue Johnson can intervene in person by moving her chair.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (37:59)
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (38:00)
You cannot do it online.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (38:02)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or you have to make yourself big or so on. Right. In the, in the therapy room, you can kind
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (38:07)
Raise your voice,
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (38:08)
Lean in, or raise your voice or so on. Or like you're saying too, like, even move them to separate rooms to be able to Exactly. You know, kind of deescalate or contain.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (38:19)
When we edited this second book, we discovered things I didn't know. For example, usually, you say don't deal with deep depression and suicide threats online. However, we have a chapter from a center whose expertise is dealing with suicide and doing that online.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (38:42)
Yeah. I've heard a number of people say, "Oh, well, this case is not appropriate for online. It has to be in person because that's the standard of care." And I was like, I don't know if that's really the case, even in cases of suicidality or so on.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (38:57)
Yeah. Now with your open mission, can we move to groups online?
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (39:02)
Yes. I would love to. I'm so interested to see how that goes and what that's like. I did a little teaching for one of the grad schools online, and that was interesting to have a bunch of different students. Groups and the interaction between groups are so interesting.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (39:18)
Okay. I'll be glad to talk about it because this is my expertise. Before we go to research, let me say that what I developed regarding groups before the pandemic, I started the first group in 2018, are groups for therapists. It's not exactly therapy groups; we call it training process groups. They're process-oriented, so it becomes like therapy. But we also had a training part. In the last 10 minutes, we moved to didactic and talked about what happened in our process group and learned from our experience. I started these groups in 2018, and during the pandemic, they became essential because therapists felt so isolated and alone. It became one of my expertise, this online training process group for therapists. Nowadays, I lead eight such groups with therapists from all over the world. The only problem is the time zones, but imagine therapists from all around the US, some from Germany, Austria, Slovakia, Israel, and even Dubai.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (41:01)
Wow. Very cool.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (41:03)
It's an amazing experience. If you ask me, I would recommend every therapist join such a group because it's an experience that contributes to the personal and professional development of the therapist. I'm not alone in this; Yalom also says the same. Research shows that when people go through these growth development groups, it is one of the most meaningful experiences in their professional development. I'm not the only one doing such groups nowadays; it has become almost like a flood. However, I can say that I started it. I already published an article about it in the International Journal of Group Psychotherapy a year ago.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (42:13)
Okay. Now, are they effective? Let's go to the research about groups. The difficulty in groups is that the factor related to success in results in groups is different from individual therapy. Not many people know this, but group therapists might. While it's the therapeutic alliance in individual therapy, it's not the therapeutic alliance between group members and the group therapist in group therapy. It's more about the cohesion of the group.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (42:51)
Okay.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (42:52)
Meaning that it's something that is not between the group members and the therapist, it's between group members. It's the group members,
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (43:02)
The belonging, the feeling that we are together, the feeling that we are connected—this is the cohesion. The question now becomes, can we create the same kind of cohesion in online groups as in groups in person?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (43:24)
And the answer is perhaps. Why? Because there is not enough research about the cohesion of online groups. I recently saw a study related directly to that, and the conclusion was clear: cohesion can be established, and the results are the same. But it's not enough; it's only one study. In individual therapy, we already have a lot of research. In groups, we don't have enough. I can only say that my experience with online groups is that they are effective, and many therapists in my groups would agree.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (44:04)
Yes. Well, actually, I'm curious too. I use the outcome rating scales and session rating scales to track outcomes and the alliance, getting feedback each session on the alliance. Is there anything you do around tracking cohesion, or is it more of a felt sense?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (44:22)
At some point, I tried using Zoom's poll feature. After every session, I asked, "Did you feel that it was effective? What did you feel about the cohesion and connection?" Unfortunately, my group members told me, "We are not here for your research."
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (44:50)
So I stopped it. I don't have results from that, unfortunately. I can only rely on what group members tell me. For example, today someone said, "This group changed my life." I asked how, and she said, as a therapist in this group for about a year, "I needed a place where I feel really safe to talk about things that I cannot talk about with anyone else. It was healing to find that people really listen to me and care about me." I was shocked that it's possible.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (45:44)
Wow. That's great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (45:47)
Yeah. That's a wonderful experience.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (45:49)
Yeah. It can be so powerful to get outside oneself, not just within therapy, but having others who are witnessing as well.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (46:00)
I agree. I believe in the power of groups, and that power is there online. In my model, because the body is missing, we have an in-person weekend once a year. It's an intensive weekend in person. Not all my colleagues follow this model, and I think they miss something. For example, in January, we had a meeting in Barcelona, Spain. People came from all over the world. Usually, they are online, but they came for two days, and it was amazing. Even months later, people say something happened to them there. It's like a drug.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (47:06)
Sure, sure. It makes me think about my partner who works in tech. They have these connect events because they're all having different meetings and connecting this way. But when they come together for an event, it really deepens the connection significantly. I imagine with a group that's so vulnerable, that must be very impactful. Is there a certain time in the trajectory of the group that you have this in-person meeting?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (47:40)
Yes. I usually start the group with an online intensive, and after a year, we meet in person. One reason is that initially, the group is not so committed. People will not invest the time, money, and energy to fly. But after a year, people are ready to put in so much energy, time, and money. It's really amazing. As you said, it connects deeply. People allow themselves to become vulnerable and can work on much deeper issues after that.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (48:17)
Well, I imagine too, right? You've primed them so much by being open and that it's that they can accelerate their process of connecting when they're meeting them in person.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (48:31)
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (48:32)
And my mind went to doing a group online. I imagine that would be difficult if one person is spacing out while another person is talking. That was my experience doing a graduate school class, which is different from a therapy group. Is everyone generally paying attention or connected? How do you manage bringing in people who seem to not be there that day?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (49:03)
You are right. Sometimes people might space out or dissociate, and it can happen more online because there are more distracting cues. It might also be more unnoticed online by the therapist or group members. That's why I think you have to be trained to do online groups and online therapy. You need to learn how to look at the cues. For example, I can see when someone does not look at the screen, their eyes are down. You can easily notice this when looking at the group members and simply ask, "Are you with us?"
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (49:50)
Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (49:51)
Or there are other ways to say, "I notice that John has not been looking at the screen for the last four minutes. Did anyone else notice that?" There are techniques to bring the person back to the group.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (50:10)
I imagine that knowing they are being connected and seen or attuned to also helps. Rather than feeling like they are on the periphery and zoning out, they see that they are part of the relationship too.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (50:27)
If the group goes well, people do not want to miss the meetings. They are more present. If they cannot attend, other group members can approach them and say, "What happened to you today? You are quiet from the beginning. It's not like yourself. Where are you?"
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (50:53)
Great. Do you have a certain number of people that you feel is a good fit for a group, or does it depend on orientation? Would you have a different number of people online versus in person?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (51:05)
That's a great question. I wrote about it, and I'll answer it. Usually, the recommendation for a small therapy group is eight plus or minus two, so between six to 10. Online, I recommend not exceeding eight people for someone who is not very skilled and experienced. I allow 10 people in my groups but do not exceed 10. Many group members are irritated with me that it's 10 and not eight. Many of my groups are angry with me about it, and that's wonderful because it's grist for the mill.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (51:55)
And then you work on that and, and process that as a group.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (52:00)
Of course, of course.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (52:02)
Great. This comes up very often and we work on that. Yeah it's part of our relationship.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (52:09)
I was gonna say, do you have groups that you do eight where they don't complain about that or compare, or are they all 10? And it's a common theme.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (52:17)
The difference between being in a group and being in individual therapy is that you always have to share the space, time, and attention. It doesn't matter whether it's eight or 10 people; you always feel that you want more and have to struggle. Will you express your needs? Will you say how jealous you are? Will you be angry? Will you confront the group leader? That's always part of a group, and we work on that.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (52:51)
Yes, storming and norming are different stages of the group. There's a bit of rebellion, and then the group goes through that process.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (53:01)
Yes, you remember the stages of Tuckman. Storming is an important stage in the group. If it doesn't happen, something is wrong. I usually expect the group to confront me at some point. Some groups are very skilled at that, and some groups want to kill me off.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (53:21)
Wow. It sounds like you're doing amazing work. I love that you have such a long history with this. It's funny because I interviewed someone who was the first person doing podcasts for therapists, and he also had an electrical engineering background related to the internet. It's great that you learned about Zoom early and published that book just six months before the pandemic, adding to the knowledge base with all these different voices. It's wonderful to hear similar themes in different approaches, aligning with your work and thinking. It's good to have research to back up that what we're doing is effective. Many people feel like this is incredibly effective, so I appreciate all the work you're doing. The group work sounds amazing. I'm going to have to look up that workshop or group for therapists. Where do people find that, by the way?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (54:46)
First of all, they can write to me, they can also find it on my website. Shall I say my email address.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (54:54)
Sure. Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (54:56)
So it's Haim, H-A-I-M-W, my first name, and the first letter of my family name, without a space W, at group, G-R-O-U-P, hyphen uhh psychotherapy, P-C-P-S-Y-C-H-O-T-H-E-R-A-P y.com. So it's, [email protected]
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (55:27)
That's perfect. Great. Well, thank you so much for taking the time today talking with us and coming on the podcast. I appreciate it.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (55:36)
Thank you so much. I enjoyed it. Thanks.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (55:39)
Okay. Take care. Bye-Bye
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (55:41)
Bye-Bye.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (55:43)
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Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including Family Systems, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, Motivational Interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma; and our center for ADHD and Oppositional & Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:31):
In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible.
Today I'll be speaking with Heim Weinberg PhD, who is a licensed ecologist in California and Israel, and has a private practice in Sacramento, California with more than 40 years of experience.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (02:31)
He is also a group analyst and certified group psychotherapist. He is past president of the Israeli Association of Group Psychotherapy and of the Northern California Group Psychotherapy Society and List Owner of the Group Psychotherapy Professional Online Discussion Forum. He was the academic Vice President of the Professional School of Psychology in which he created and coordinates an online doctoral program in group psychotherapy and marital therapy. He published books on internet groups and about fairytales and the social unconscious and co-edited a book about the large group and a series of books about the social unconscious. He is on the clinical faculty of psychiatry at the uc, Davis Medical Center and Fellow of the American Group Psychotherapy Association, and of the International Group Psychotherapy Association, as well as a distinguished fellow of the Israeli Group Psychotherapy Association. He has received several awards, including the Harold Bernard Group Therapy Training Award and the Ann Alonzo Award for Excellence in psychodynamic group therapy. He also co-edited the books theory and Practice of online Therapy, internet delivered interventions for individuals, groups, families and organizations, advances in online therapy, emergence of a new paradigm, and the Virtual Group Therapy Circle, advances in online group theory and practice with Arnon Rolnick and Adam Layton. Let's listen to the interview. Okay. Hi Heim. Welcome.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (03:57)
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (04:00)
Yeah, thank you so much for joining. I'm really glad to have you on 'cause the work you've been doing is really interesting. I saw the subject line that said I was wrong, and I started looking at it and it was somebody who had talked about how adamantly they felt that working in-person was much better than working remotely through telehealth. But then they referenced the book that you edited on the effectiveness of working with clients remotely through telehealth. And this is an area that I was looking for because I had done a couple sessions here and there prior to the pandemic, but then really just was blown away by how well remote therapy worked during the pandemic to the point where I actually went back in the office about a year and a half ago, and only three outta 35 wanted to come back in the office because they found it so helpful.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (04:58)
Yeah, so I was interested in some research around this, it didn't feel like there was a lot when I was searching around that was pre pandemic. But now with so much research and writing since this phenomena has happened to the world of psychotherapy, I was just so happy to happen upon your book. I would love to hear about your work and about your thoughts and the research on telehealth remote therapy in person. First I'd love to hear about the evolution of your thinking, how you got to kind of doing what you're doing here.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (05:36)
You bring up so many topics already.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (05:40)
Where do you want us to start: my evolution or more? How did I get to online therapy?
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (05:48)
Your evolution? I'm always interested in how the person's thinking evolved to where they're doing whatever they're doing now.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (05:55)
Okay. I grew up in Israel. Israel is not a place that many people like nowadays. But in my time it was a very nice place. Sure, my psychological education started in Israel. I studied the first and second degrees in Israel. I did the doctorate later, finished it in the uk, before I came to the US. Anyway, I became a clinical psychologist, licensed psychologist in Israel, in 1982. And at the same time I had a very, full, private practice in Israel, I also became very interested in group therapy. Actually my expertise is group therapy. And I became more and more experienced and trained in groups. I became what is called, outside the US group analyst.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (07:08)
It's not well-known in the US but it's a kind of a long training, like a psychoanalyst, in, individual therapy. Then I moved to the US in 2006. The US is a different culture, not only socially, but also therapeutic. I would say that I integrated my psychodynamic group analytic approaching groups with the relational approach that is in the US. Nowadays I define myself as a psychodynamic relational, or in groups, I would say group analytic relational group therapist. Okay. So this is a little bit about my professional development. if you want I can expand more about that.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (08:13)
Well, now, actually, now I'm interested. Tell me about how you, what you see as the difference between psychodynamics, psychoanalytic and relational between the two.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (08:25)
Okay. I hope that our listeners will not get bored. Sure. But the conservative psychodynamic or psychoanalytic approach, means that we look at the problems inside the patient. Okay. if you have transference because of your background and your relationship with your parents. And the therapist, even though we know that there is a countertransference, it's still something that the problems are not mine. They are yours. And we always explore your now relational psychology or relational psychodynamic psychotherapy actually, reminding us that we, the therapist, also have our unconscious and it can affect the relationship. So almost everything is a product of a co-creation of the therapist and the client. And we always have to consider not only what the patient brings to the interaction, but also how we are in this interaction.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (09:36)
Sure. Okay. So not just a blank slate.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (09:43)
That's exactly it, we are not a blank screen. Yeah. So if the patient tells me, you are criticizing me, I wouldn't say it's because of your critical father. Yeah. I would say, you know what, maybe you have a point, maybe what I said can be perceived. I am part of the interaction. Oh, great. Yeah. It's just a small example.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (10:08)
It seems like it's a little bit more of a postmodern kind of outgrowth of, you know, what we bring into the dynamic. yeah. Great. Wonderful. Okay. Okay, perfect. So psychodynamic psychoanalytic groups relational, and that's been your focus. And how's, how did that connect to the, or Well, I'll, I'll keep letting you go on the evolution before we get to the, the online.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (10:35)
We can start with the evolution of the online if you want, but, if you want, I can talk more about groups, for example, how the relational approach in a group, yeah. Manifests itself, itself. So for example, in a group, we can talk about what is called the difficult patient in the group. Okay. . , there are people, some of them might be diagnosed as borderline autistic. They become difficult patients in the group. And, along with the use of psychotherapy, we developed ways of dealing with those difficult patients. But if we look at it, relationally, there is no difficult patient without a difficult therapist or difficult group. So it's all co-created. So we need to look at what kind of behaviors either of the group therapist or the group members, encourage this problematic behavior. Sure. And it's always a group as a whole approach. . that we look not only at one person.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (11:44)
Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (11:44)
If you want another wonderful example . , the scapegoat phenomenon. Sure. It's always a creation of the entire group, and not only of the problematic person who becomes a scapegoat.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (11:59)
Yeah. But there's all, there's multiple parts that are played.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (12:03)
Exactly. Yes. And, and in theory, the group projects the disowned part, the part that they don't want to own. Yeah. Onto the scapegoat. And he or she might, or they might identify with it.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (12:18)
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Great. So it's kind of like a contextual aspect or almost like a systemic piece that plays into the manifestation of what's happening with each individual within the group.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (12:31)
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (12:32)
They're not in a vacuum.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (12:34)
Exactly. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (12:36)
Yeah. Great. That's great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (12:39)
Yeah. Cool. So let me go online because Sure. It's part of my development and part of what I do nowadays. I hope we can get to that eventually. Sure. Yeah. So first of all, I became, how would I say, involved in the online thing long before many other therapists started to be there. Yeah and one of the reasons was that in my dark past Yeah. I studied electrical engineering.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (13:19)
Ah, okay.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (13:20)
So the, you know, the internet was not a strange thing to me. And my approach to, machines and, things that technology, is easier than many other therapists, I think Sure.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (13:39)
Felt more comfortable with technology.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (13:41)
Exactly. So in 1995, when the internet was only at the beginning, I established an internet for today, a Google group, I would say. Yeah. Then it was what is called a listserv. Yeah. So I established a listserv, an international one online, about group therapy. Oh, great. And very quickly, 400, group therapists and therapists from all over the world joined and we discussed issues of group therapy. Oh, wow. and it became a very important community that I felt that it helped me develop and belong. And also for many other people Yeah. That was on this, this, discussion list still exists until today.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (14:34)
Wow. That's huge. What's it called?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (14:37)
GP Group Psychotherapy. .
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (14:39)
Okay. Oh, great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (14:40)
The GP lists .
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (14:42)
Oh, very cool. Okay.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (14:45)
That was very early.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (14:46)
Early. Yeah. Very early. I wanted to say, if anyone wants to join, it's for free. Just try to. Now, when I moved to the US I had patients that wanted to continue, from Israel . . And at that time, I tried to use Skype. . . And I must say that it was quite failing at that time, and especially in groups. Groups could not do Skype in 2006 . . so I did continue with patients on Skype, but I wasn't satisfied. . . And then around 2009, 2010, I was involved. I actually, I would say, created and directed a program. Doctorate program with a, a professional school of psychology. That was at the time in Sacramento where I live. And the program was an international one. .
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (16:00)
Focused on group therapy. . Very distinct, one. Yeah. And the students were from all over the world. We had studied a lot of students from Israel because they knew me there but also from Asia, Singapore, China, Japan. And I was looking for a good tool to do classes online. . . The idea was that teachers from all over the world teach online. Oh, great. But also combined with in person, because I was coming, I was traveling to Israel to Singapore all over Oh, wow. For workshops. And I found Zoom in 2012. Long before anyone knew what Zoom was. Yeah. And my only regret was that I didn't invest in their shares.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (17:01)
Right. That would've been a good time to invest.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (17:05)
Yes. I might have become a millionaire. Yeah. Right. and I started doing classes with my students, and it was amazing. Mm. You know, every student was at home. The teacher, the presenter were at home as well, and it was like a class.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (17:27)
Great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (17:29)
And then I thought since I was a group therapist, and, a lot of my work was with groups. How about if we try it also for group therapy? Yeah. So I first started this with my students. They had an experiential part . part of the study. And again, I was amazed; how come that it works? It looked like a group. Yeah. Everything was there. Wow. transfer resistance, group dynamics, difficult issues.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (18:03)
Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (18:04)
Yeah. So, I actually started doing online therapy and online group therapy. . long before the pandemic.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (18:16)
Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (18:18)
And I will tell you a little bit more about the kind of groups that I did. But, then in 2019, . I edited a book with a colleague from Israel. Dr. , I co-edited a book about online therapy. The book was published, less than half a year before the pandemic started. Wow. At the end of you can imagine that it became the textbook.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (18:51)
Yes.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (18:52)
For therapists, because everybody moved online. . , nobody knew how to do that. Almost nobody knew. Yeah. And they were looking for how to do it. Yeah. And our book became really a bestseller. It was translated into South Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Czech Republic, Romania, and many languages.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (19:19)
Sure.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (19:20)
Yeah. Now at that time, there was not a lot of research . . But the research that was there, showed a positive, that, that it's, it looks as if it is beneficial. Yeah. My experience was clear that it works both in online individual therapy. And also in groups. But I clarified, it was clear to me that there are obstacles and I think that I identified what are the obstacles? . , and I wrote both in my book, but also I published several articles. I wrote which obstacles we need to acknowledge and what ways we have to overcome them. Mm
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (20:26)
Because of my idea of obstacles, they are not things that prevent us. But they are things that challenge us. To find creative ideas on how to overcome them.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (20:38)
Yeah. Have to be aware of how to adjust to those for online.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (20:44)
Exactly. Exactly. Do you want me to say what the obstacles were?
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (20:49)
I would love to, actually, I was just about to ask that. Yeah. What were the obstacles that you identified? And this is pre pandemic, that you identified these
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (20:58)
Yes. Yes. They're written already in my book that was published before the pandemic . . So there are actually maybe four main obstacles. Maybe three are crucial. One is clearly the question of the setting. . . And usually what happens when someone comes, or a group comes to our office that we kind of control the setting. We have control over the setting. We decide what will be the pictures on the wall. We close the door, we put music in the waiting room. Yeah. Whatever. Online. We only control half of the setting hours. . Sure. But I see you now, and you decided where you will sit, which chair it'll be, what, which room? Whether the door is closed. . . So this creates a question about safety, confidentiality. Privacy and many other issues, because the setting is not only a practical thing. . , it's the holding environment, as we say, in therapy. So I cannot create a holding environment. . . So this is one obstacle. . . And this is an obstacle that is easy to overcome. . how by instructing the group member or the individual, patient, to create a holding environment on their own. To close the door. No one will interrupt. . . It's simple, but it's important.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (22:47)
Well, it reminds me too of, I used to do in-home family therapy work, in my internship years and going into a home and asking the family to kind of turn off the TV and let's sit over here and kind of create a setting for doing the work.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (23:04)
Exactly. And, and it's not only a practical thing, creating the setting is creating safety and holding your environment.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (23:11)
Yeah. Containing.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (23:12)
Containing, yeah. And I already put it in the agreement. . , as part of the agreement, you are going to, not, for example, not to read emails, not to look at your iPhone. Alright. So this is about the setting.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (23:35)
Yes.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (23:36)
Let's move to the second one.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (23:38)
Okay. Number two.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (23:39)
Number two is the biggest problem, which is what I call the disembodied environment, meaning something is missing. What is missing is the body. Now, it's not exactly that the body is missing. I feel my body; if I have a stomach ache, my body exists, but the body-to-body interaction is missing. A good example is eye-to-eye contact. Now, it's less crucial in individual therapy. I can still look straight into the camera. If the camera in the computer is not on the top center, I will look aside. In a group, it's even more crucial because in a group in person, when I sit down, I move my gaze from one person to another, and I hold them in my gaze. If I try to do it in a group online, they will think that something strange is happening to my head.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (25:11)
Sure.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (25:12)
So this is an example of the body to body interactions that he's really lacking online. Another example, by the way, if you co-lead in a group. Usually when I look into the eyes of my colleagues in the office, I know that they can warn me with their eyes not to go there. Online they cannot.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (25:41)
It's hard for them to catch your eye line.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (25:44)
Exactly. So, what do we do with that? You need to be creative. I don't think you totally overcome the difficulty of the body-to-body interaction. But, for example, you can ask people, "We are online. I don't know what is happening to your body. It's difficult for me to catch the signs. Can you share with me what is happening in your body?" This uses what we call the somatic experience approach online. Okay, this is one. I have others, but I see that our time is running out. So, I want to move to the next one, which is connected to the question of the body and its presence.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (26:44)
Right.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (26:44)
The difficulty is in being present. Because our connection is mediated, it doesn't feel like a presence in the room. We know that some people can break the screen by their presence, like even on TV broadcasts. We need to learn how to do that. For example, my idea is to use more self-disclosure. When I say, "What you told me really touched me, I felt your pain," I am more present. This creates a stronger connection. This is just one idea.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (27:40)
Being more engaged than because you don't have that already kind of baseline just being in the room and being engaged.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (27:49)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Again, I have more ideas, but I want to move on because there are many other things. The last thing that is less crucial is the fact that somehow online we ignore the background. So if someone enters the room, especially in a group, if it's in person, you will never ignore that. Yes. If it happens in the room of one of the group members, you sometimes do not even relate to that. So somehow if a cat comes into the room, online, you usually do not relate to that in a group. I don't think that you will avoid it. . . But this is the less important thing.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (28:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (28:40)
You wanted to ask something?
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (28:42)
No, no, that's great. So, so there's the setting, the disembodied, the presence and
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (28:48)
Ignoring the room.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (28:49)
Ignoring the room. Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (28:52)
Now, with these difficulties, the question is does it really work? And what does research say about
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (29:01)
It? Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (29:02)
So, very fortunately, there has been a lot of research since the pandemic. The research about individual therapy is very clear. There is no difference in the results of online individual therapy compared to in-person therapy. This is not from one researcher but from a meta-analysis. I'll mention just a few researchers: Simpson, Simpson and Reed, Fry, and Fernandez. All of them, I think it was 2021, conducted research showing that it works exactly the same. Now the question is, how come? And the answer is simple: What is the best predictor of good results in individual therapy?
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (30:09)
The alliance?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (30:14)
The Therapeutic Alliance. Many people do not know that the therapeutic alliance actually includes three components: agreeing about the goals, agreeing about the tasks (how to achieve the goals), and the bonding, the developing relationship. Agreeing about the goals and tasks is not a problem to do online. Two-thirds of the therapeutic alliance can easily be achieved online. Now, the question of the bonding and the relationships that develop is more complex, but research shows that the therapeutic alliance is the same, and that's why it works well.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (31:08)
Great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (31:09)
So this is what I can say, research shows that at least in the individual field, it's as effective. . . And that's why your patients told you why come to your office and, you know, commute and
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (31:26)
Exactly, yeah. Takes
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (31:27)
Time
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (31:27)
Babysitting for the kids or something like that. It was so much more convenient. I'm interested too; one thing I've found anecdotally through folks I've known or talked to is that some therapists hate it. They feel like they can't connect with the client and can't build that relationship. Other therapists are like, "I'm never going back. This has worked great." People I know who work with children are just blown away by how well it works and say they'll never go back. Other people just can't get it to work for them. Are there different therapist factors that play into this?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (32:07)
Yes. First of all, thank you for pointing it out. It's not suitable for everyone, whether you are a patient or a therapist. I assume some of it is related to the attachment style of the therapist. But I also think it is related to the modality the therapist is more sensitive to. For example, if you are visually oriented, it might be more difficult, especially in a group, to notice all the group members. If you are auditory oriented and have difficulty hearing, online therapy is for you. I hear much better with my earphones; I hear you in my head.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (33:12)
So I'm more effective because I hear better. Whether it's acoustic or visual might determine your preference sometimes. But if you are not comfortable with online therapy, don't do it. Even if it's beneficial, it won't be as good if you don't feel good. You as a therapist need to feel that it suits you.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (33:44)
Yeah. Well, and thinking back to the outcome research, there's the aspect of allegiance to whatever the therapist sees as their modality or methods of treatment.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (33:56)
There is still not enough research about the properties, qualities, and qualifications of the therapies. But we do know that many therapists felt very unprepared at the beginning of the pandemic. And still, until today, many therapists feel that they need more training in this modality, which I agree with.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (34:23)
Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (34:24)
Since there was so much research during the pandemic, we co-edited a new book that came out just half a year ago. In this book, we asked people from different therapeutic approaches, like CBT, schema therapy, ACT, and psychodynamic, to write about the obstacles they encountered and how they overcame them. I love this book because it shows how, from different approaches, they reached almost the same conclusions that I had reached before.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (35:17)
Oh, great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (35:19)
And to be sure of what is happening in a group, we also co-edited a book that came out at the beginning of this year. We did the same: we asked people from different approaches of group therapy, because there are different approaches, how they overcame the difficulties.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (35:42)
Yes, yes.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (35:43)
So we now have three books that I am involved in co-editing about online therapy.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (35:49)
Great. I've got your book and I'm just getting through the beginning. There's a general discussion around and research on online therapy, and then different chapters on individual therapy, couples therapy, family therapy, and all those pieces. It's great to see how others were able to figure it out. One aspect of our practice is that we have an ADHD center. The nuances of working with kids or adults with ADHD are important, like noticing when the client's eyes are darting around and asking, "Did something just come up on your computer? It's okay, you can take a moment to answer that."
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (36:32)
And they might say, "No, no, hold on. Sorry, let me put that away." These nuances help work with clients to be present. For myself, sometimes with the couples I work with, I don't see everything, but I can almost see minor movements. I might ask, "Did you just move your hand to put it on your partner's leg?" and they say, "Yes." It's almost like my mind is filling in the blank that I'm missing outside of the screen.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (37:03)
We have some chapters about couple therapy and different approaches to couple therapy, whether it's Gottman or Sue Johnson. EFT suggests different things about whether the couple should be on different computers or in the same room, for example. It's very interesting.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (37:34)
Definitely. I've had a couple where they sat on the corners of the table because sitting right next to each other was too anxiety-provoking. They couldn't quite see each other, and one person would get very nervous.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (37:49)
Yeah. And what do you do with high conflict couples? Because Sue Johnson can intervene in person by moving her chair.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (37:59)
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (38:00)
You cannot do it online.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (38:02)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or you have to make yourself big or so on. Right. In the, in the therapy room, you can kind
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (38:07)
Raise your voice,
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (38:08)
Lean in, or raise your voice or so on. Or like you're saying too, like, even move them to separate rooms to be able to Exactly. You know, kind of deescalate or contain.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (38:19)
When we edited this second book, we discovered things I didn't know. For example, usually, you say don't deal with deep depression and suicide threats online. However, we have a chapter from a center whose expertise is dealing with suicide and doing that online.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (38:42)
Yeah. I've heard a number of people say, "Oh, well, this case is not appropriate for online. It has to be in person because that's the standard of care." And I was like, I don't know if that's really the case, even in cases of suicidality or so on.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (38:57)
Yeah. Now with your open mission, can we move to groups online?
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (39:02)
Yes. I would love to. I'm so interested to see how that goes and what that's like. I did a little teaching for one of the grad schools online, and that was interesting to have a bunch of different students. Groups and the interaction between groups are so interesting.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (39:18)
Okay. I'll be glad to talk about it because this is my expertise. Before we go to research, let me say that what I developed regarding groups before the pandemic, I started the first group in 2018, are groups for therapists. It's not exactly therapy groups; we call it training process groups. They're process-oriented, so it becomes like therapy. But we also had a training part. In the last 10 minutes, we moved to didactic and talked about what happened in our process group and learned from our experience. I started these groups in 2018, and during the pandemic, they became essential because therapists felt so isolated and alone. It became one of my expertise, this online training process group for therapists. Nowadays, I lead eight such groups with therapists from all over the world. The only problem is the time zones, but imagine therapists from all around the US, some from Germany, Austria, Slovakia, Israel, and even Dubai.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (41:01)
Wow. Very cool.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (41:03)
It's an amazing experience. If you ask me, I would recommend every therapist join such a group because it's an experience that contributes to the personal and professional development of the therapist. I'm not alone in this; Yalom also says the same. Research shows that when people go through these growth development groups, it is one of the most meaningful experiences in their professional development. I'm not the only one doing such groups nowadays; it has become almost like a flood. However, I can say that I started it. I already published an article about it in the International Journal of Group Psychotherapy a year ago.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (42:13)
Okay. Now, are they effective? Let's go to the research about groups. The difficulty in groups is that the factor related to success in results in groups is different from individual therapy. Not many people know this, but group therapists might. While it's the therapeutic alliance in individual therapy, it's not the therapeutic alliance between group members and the group therapist in group therapy. It's more about the cohesion of the group.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (42:51)
Okay.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (42:52)
Meaning that it's something that is not between the group members and the therapist, it's between group members. It's the group members,
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (43:02)
The belonging, the feeling that we are together, the feeling that we are connected—this is the cohesion. The question now becomes, can we create the same kind of cohesion in online groups as in groups in person?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (43:24)
And the answer is perhaps. Why? Because there is not enough research about the cohesion of online groups. I recently saw a study related directly to that, and the conclusion was clear: cohesion can be established, and the results are the same. But it's not enough; it's only one study. In individual therapy, we already have a lot of research. In groups, we don't have enough. I can only say that my experience with online groups is that they are effective, and many therapists in my groups would agree.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (44:04)
Yes. Well, actually, I'm curious too. I use the outcome rating scales and session rating scales to track outcomes and the alliance, getting feedback each session on the alliance. Is there anything you do around tracking cohesion, or is it more of a felt sense?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (44:22)
At some point, I tried using Zoom's poll feature. After every session, I asked, "Did you feel that it was effective? What did you feel about the cohesion and connection?" Unfortunately, my group members told me, "We are not here for your research."
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (44:50)
So I stopped it. I don't have results from that, unfortunately. I can only rely on what group members tell me. For example, today someone said, "This group changed my life." I asked how, and she said, as a therapist in this group for about a year, "I needed a place where I feel really safe to talk about things that I cannot talk about with anyone else. It was healing to find that people really listen to me and care about me." I was shocked that it's possible.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (45:44)
Wow. That's great.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (45:47)
Yeah. That's a wonderful experience.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (45:49)
Yeah. It can be so powerful to get outside oneself, not just within therapy, but having others who are witnessing as well.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (46:00)
I agree. I believe in the power of groups, and that power is there online. In my model, because the body is missing, we have an in-person weekend once a year. It's an intensive weekend in person. Not all my colleagues follow this model, and I think they miss something. For example, in January, we had a meeting in Barcelona, Spain. People came from all over the world. Usually, they are online, but they came for two days, and it was amazing. Even months later, people say something happened to them there. It's like a drug.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (47:06)
Sure, sure. It makes me think about my partner who works in tech. They have these connect events because they're all having different meetings and connecting this way. But when they come together for an event, it really deepens the connection significantly. I imagine with a group that's so vulnerable, that must be very impactful. Is there a certain time in the trajectory of the group that you have this in-person meeting?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (47:40)
Yes. I usually start the group with an online intensive, and after a year, we meet in person. One reason is that initially, the group is not so committed. People will not invest the time, money, and energy to fly. But after a year, people are ready to put in so much energy, time, and money. It's really amazing. As you said, it connects deeply. People allow themselves to become vulnerable and can work on much deeper issues after that.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (48:17)
Well, I imagine too, right? You've primed them so much by being open and that it's that they can accelerate their process of connecting when they're meeting them in person.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (48:31)
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (48:32)
And my mind went to doing a group online. I imagine that would be difficult if one person is spacing out while another person is talking. That was my experience doing a graduate school class, which is different from a therapy group. Is everyone generally paying attention or connected? How do you manage bringing in people who seem to not be there that day?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (49:03)
You are right. Sometimes people might space out or dissociate, and it can happen more online because there are more distracting cues. It might also be more unnoticed online by the therapist or group members. That's why I think you have to be trained to do online groups and online therapy. You need to learn how to look at the cues. For example, I can see when someone does not look at the screen, their eyes are down. You can easily notice this when looking at the group members and simply ask, "Are you with us?"
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (49:50)
Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (49:51)
Or there are other ways to say, "I notice that John has not been looking at the screen for the last four minutes. Did anyone else notice that?" There are techniques to bring the person back to the group.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (50:10)
I imagine that knowing they are being connected and seen or attuned to also helps. Rather than feeling like they are on the periphery and zoning out, they see that they are part of the relationship too.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (50:27)
If the group goes well, people do not want to miss the meetings. They are more present. If they cannot attend, other group members can approach them and say, "What happened to you today? You are quiet from the beginning. It's not like yourself. Where are you?"
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (50:53)
Great. Do you have a certain number of people that you feel is a good fit for a group, or does it depend on orientation? Would you have a different number of people online versus in person?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (51:05)
That's a great question. I wrote about it, and I'll answer it. Usually, the recommendation for a small therapy group is eight plus or minus two, so between six to 10. Online, I recommend not exceeding eight people for someone who is not very skilled and experienced. I allow 10 people in my groups but do not exceed 10. Many group members are irritated with me that it's 10 and not eight. Many of my groups are angry with me about it, and that's wonderful because it's grist for the mill.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (51:55)
And then you work on that and, and process that as a group.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (52:00)
Of course, of course.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (52:02)
Great. This comes up very often and we work on that. Yeah it's part of our relationship.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (52:09)
I was gonna say, do you have groups that you do eight where they don't complain about that or compare, or are they all 10? And it's a common theme.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (52:17)
The difference between being in a group and being in individual therapy is that you always have to share the space, time, and attention. It doesn't matter whether it's eight or 10 people; you always feel that you want more and have to struggle. Will you express your needs? Will you say how jealous you are? Will you be angry? Will you confront the group leader? That's always part of a group, and we work on that.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (52:51)
Yes, storming and norming are different stages of the group. There's a bit of rebellion, and then the group goes through that process.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (53:01)
Yes, you remember the stages of Tuckman. Storming is an important stage in the group. If it doesn't happen, something is wrong. I usually expect the group to confront me at some point. Some groups are very skilled at that, and some groups want to kill me off.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (53:21)
Wow. It sounds like you're doing amazing work. I love that you have such a long history with this. It's funny because I interviewed someone who was the first person doing podcasts for therapists, and he also had an electrical engineering background related to the internet. It's great that you learned about Zoom early and published that book just six months before the pandemic, adding to the knowledge base with all these different voices. It's wonderful to hear similar themes in different approaches, aligning with your work and thinking. It's good to have research to back up that what we're doing is effective. Many people feel like this is incredibly effective, so I appreciate all the work you're doing. The group work sounds amazing. I'm going to have to look up that workshop or group for therapists. Where do people find that, by the way?
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (54:46)
First of all, they can write to me, they can also find it on my website. Shall I say my email address.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (54:54)
Sure. Yeah.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (54:56)
So it's Haim, H-A-I-M-W, my first name, and the first letter of my family name, without a space W, at group, G-R-O-U-P, hyphen uhh psychotherapy, P-C-P-S-Y-C-H-O-T-H-E-R-A-P y.com. So it's, [email protected]
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (55:27)
That's perfect. Great. Well, thank you so much for taking the time today talking with us and coming on the podcast. I appreciate it.
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (55:36)
Thank you so much. I enjoyed it. Thanks.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (55:39)
Okay. Take care. Bye-Bye
Dr. Haim Weinberg, Ph.D.: (55:41)
Bye-Bye.
Keith Sutton, PsyD: (55:43)
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