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Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT - Guest
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist who has been in the mental health field since 1989. Laney is the Founder/Developer of Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART) developed in 2008. She is the CEO of Rosenzweig Center for Rapid Recovery, which trains clinicians in ART. ART has a treatment protocol that is directive, standardized and easy to apply using. It is an eye movement therapy. Her introduction of the Voluntary Image Replacement (VIR), which guides clients to erase negative images from view in their mind, is a unique and powerful way to quickly eliminate triggers and eradicate symptoms. Laney has traveled the globe training licensed mental health professionals in ART and has over 65 ART trainers. Yale University has trained clinicians and in the process of doing a study as well as Mayo Clinic and the Canadian Military. She is available for presentations to civilian and military groups who are seeking an alternative to longer, less effective treatments for trauma and other mental health problems. The website is www.ARTworksNOW.com. There is an intro to ART every 4th Wednesday of the month at 6 pm Eastern and the link can be found on the top of the website. |
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W. Keith Sutton, Psy.D. - Host
Dr. Sutton has always had an interest in learning from multiple theoretical perspectives, and keeping up to date on innovations and integrations. He is interested in the development of ideas, and using research to show effectiveness in treatment and refine treatments. In 2009 he started the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, providing a one-way mirror training in family therapy with James Keim, LCSW. Next, he added a trainer and one-way mirror training in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and an additional trainer and mirror in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. The participants enjoyed analyzing cases, keeping each other up to date on research, and discussing what they were learning. This focus on integrating and evolving their approaches to helping children, adolescents, families, couples, and individuals lead to the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy's training program for therapists, and its group practice of like-minded clinicians who were dedicated to learning, innovating, and advancing the field of psychotherapy. Our podcast, Therapy on the Cutting Edge, is an extension of this wish to learn, integrate, stay up to date, and share this passion for the advancement of the field with other practitioners. |
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (00:24):
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including family systems, cognitive behavioral therapy, emotionally focused couples therapy, eye movement desensitization reprocessing, motivational interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using emotionally focused couples therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma;
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:26):
And our center for ADHD and oppositional and Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches. In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (02:19):
Today I’ll be speaking with Laney Rosenzweig who is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and has been in the mental health field since 1989. Laney is the Founder/Developer of Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART). She is the CEO of Rosenzweig Center for Rapid Recovery, which trains clinicians in ART. ART has a treatment protocol that is directive, standardized and easy to apply. It is an eye movement therapy. Her introduction of the Voluntary Image Replacement (VIR), which guides clients to erase negative images from view in their mind, is a unique and powerful way to quickly eliminate triggers and eradicate symptoms. Laney has traveled the globe training licensed mental health professionals in ART and has over 65 ART trainers. She is available for presentations to civilian and military groups and there is an intro to ART every 4th Wednesday of the month.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:18):
Hi, Laney. Welcome. Thanks for joining.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (03:21):
Thank you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:23):
Yeah. Thanks so much for taking the time today to talk with me about ART. I'm really excited to learn more about it. You know, I've, I've heard more from other folks around accelerated Resolution therapy and, you know, it's kind of an offshoot of the EMDR from my understanding. And people have been really finding it very helpful with their clients. So I wanted to learn more about you and your work and ART and kind of what you're doing with it. I always like to first start off and find out about, you know, your evolution of your thinking. Kind of, you know, how you got to doing what you're doing with the work that you're doing.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (04:01):
Sure. So, I took an…first of all, I had a stroke four years ago. My voice has changed everything else the same. So I try to talk very clearly. I take the scenic route and go slow. So I love metaphors by the way. So I took training in 2007 in EMDR and took the whole thing. And what I didn't like with the free association aspect. I'd like to be direct, I'd like to be as quick as possible. So I changed it and I thought, "What if I put the eye movements right on the problem?"-- and I was getting results like one time for trauma and they're done. I did one time for OCD, he never looked back. When I checked, he said, I'm fine. So I thought, "Wow, you know, this is cool." So I thought it was EMDR and I even wrote a paper in the local newspaper.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (05:06):
I wrote an article about me with EMDR and then I went for supervision. I didn't feel like I fit in because I had no questions--everyone else did. But I went for supervision with an EMDR supervisor and she said, you're not doing EMDR and I don't know what you're doing, so do it our way or call it something else. I decided in 2008 to start calling it something else and start writing down what I do. And actually we're pretty opposite of EMDR because I wrote a paper on what Francine Shapiro says and what I say, and they're directly opposed. However, most EMDR people-- cause I've trained thousands of people-- don't do the face Francine Shapiro method. It takes too long. They find it cumbersome, but most of all, it can leave people half processed. So I've had people who went to the ER after an EMDR session.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (06:20):
Now, and I've had it sometimes, like it'll take years and not be done. So for example, I had someone from 9/11 who had EMDR and she came to see me and we did something called the "SUDs": subjective unit of distress. She went from a ten to a six with EMDR. But she could still see the body parts. So I took her in and within one hour session we erased from her mind the body parts and negative images and she went to zero. So I feel like we're more complete and we also deal with images and we do re-scripting. That means, you come in and you have a good dream to take over your nightmare. That's how it was done so quickly. So actually we're a better REM--Rapid eye movement sleep-- because you feel awake, you can control the dream. You feel wide awake, and this is not hypnosis, and if you change it, then you're better because the amygdala, the part of the brain with the emotional side, changes while the prefrontal cortex, the brain thinking side, stays the same as all the facts. Once you eliminate the negative images and sensations, you're done and they can't believe it. I call my book "Too Good to be True" because the prefrontal cortex, thinking brain says, "How can we be done?" but the emotional side says, "Yes, you see good images and you're done."
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (08:02):
Mm. Wow. That's incredible
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (08:05):
<Laugh>. Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (08:05):
Tell me, tell me about that. Erasing the images from your mind.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (08:54):
When you do eye movements. Like say you want to remember something at night and you think, "Okay, I want to remember this tomorrow morning", but you don't write it down. The brain during REM or during the sleep cycles will erase things that it thinks it's maybe not that important. So I use the same eye movements and the way that I do Accelerated Resolution Therapy. The way we do it is to also erase and replace things to something I learned how to do by listening to clients who say, "Gee, I can't see that old stuff anymore".
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (08:54):
Yeah.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (08:54):
I learned for each phase, even for doing Gestalt--I used to be good with Gestalt in college-- but I didn't want people throwing pillows around my office. I never used the Gestalt until I did the eye movements and could do it with eye movements in the client's mind. You can reach back and talk to their earlier selves and collect things. So maybe Freud would be very proud of me because he brought up what's wrong in the past and I know how to deal with it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (09:26):
Yeah. Yeah. Actually having a way to address it. Exactly.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (09:30):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (09:30):
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And I know that oftentimes that is very powerful-- bringing that adult self into that child self or in internal family systems. They kind of use that in ways in some of the cognitive beliefs in EMDR that's been used a lot, although I don't know if that's what's originally in Francine Shapiro's kind of work. Yeah.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (09:54):
He does cognitive interviews only when the client's stuck very quickly, then goes back to free associating. So I tried EMDR one time and I said to the client, "Go with that! Go with it! Go with that!" And he said, "Go with what?" And I said, "I think it's the last thing you thought of." So I was terrible at that then. I'm much better when I do it in the directive way that we do it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (10:23):
Sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (10:24):
And as far as IFS, I respect it, but you have to name the parts. It is a lot of work. I just simply use a Gestalt and have the adult person in front of me tell their earlier selves they're okay. Fritz Pearls who used to have an empty chair and say, "There's your dad. Yell At your dad." Well, I do it in the mind with the thought, and it works really well because for phobias, for example--I will tell you, I do a free intro every fourth Wednesday on my website, ART work now.com, on the website it says free intro--and I have a link for a woman, she cannot go up the stairs without great fear because as a 5-year-old child at the beach, she thought they'd fall through the spaces in the sea.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (11:19):
Oh wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (11:20):
So in front of a group, I did a demo in about 40 minutes. I said, "Can you go up the stairs over here?" So on the stairwell for the outside-- fire escape--she goes up and down. The next morning I said, "Can I video it?" So on my free intro that people can watch, you'll see her go up with no hands-- I didn't tell her to do that-- and with no hands right after I had done the ART with her the day before. Now [she] no longer has fear of steps. Because the adult version tells her earlier herself in her mind, "It's okay." Let's get rid of the bad sensations. Let's update your computer, that's what ART does.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (12:13):
Yeah. And so tell me a little bit about the process-- that's amazing that, within just one session, having that significant change. What is the process of ART?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (12:24):
So I'll tell you in general, because we don't give the steps away. People could try it and then that'd be devastating. Literally the idea is to show the brain the problem by envisioning whatever it is, and doing the processing. The way we do it, we have a certain amount of eye movements and I do script . We learn a script as a therapist, you go out, you can use a script right away, and clients don't mind.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (12:59):
We do a practicum in the training. So they resolve their own issues very quickly. And I will say, I'm doing things like alcoholism or substance abuse. Eating disorders may take a little longer-- just cravings, what we call secondary gains. So, much faster-- could be one to five sessions-- but much faster than regular, you know, therapy that's out there.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (13:30):
Wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (13:31):
And not having to have them see detail when we do it because we just go through the steps. We do not even know what the problem was. So kids will like it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (13:43):
Yeah. Yeah.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (13:44):
It's a procedure, like going to the dentist...you take out decay, you put in a good filling, you're done... Much like that for trauma with ART, because we take out negative things, put in positive and they're done.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (13:59):
Yeah. And so I'm trained in EMDR and you know, I know that, you know, we kind of do the float back or the bridge back to kind of get to target images, and that's the image the person brings up while they're doing the eye movements or the other ways of bilateral stimulation. And then they free associate, their mind kind of begins to kind of work---
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (14:25):
Free associate. And I don't think you need to free associate.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:28):
Yeah. It seems like that's one of the biggest differences with, rather than kind of the free association and the therapist kind of staying a bit out of it and giving like just little bits of little guidance-- your approach, you're really kind of, getting much more engaged and actually processing and discussing.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (14:45):
Yes, you have a script, but we'd add interventions in the back of the manual--I have like hundreds of interventions you can add-- So we do something called a 'Scene Match'-- taking the feeling you have right now and matching it to an earlier time when you felt that way, and that's how you can get to the origin.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:08):
So a Scene Match, starting with the present emotion-- thinking about an earlier time when you had those same emotions.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (15:15):
For example, I had a woman who said, "Every time people pass in front of me, I get startled. I don't know why." And we're in the training, so I said okay, I did this scene match, and she said, "Oh my God, I'm four years old with a jack in the box."
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:34):
Wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (15:35):
And I feel scared as a 4-year-old. So I did that very quickly. I told people to pass in front of her during the training at some point, and she didn't even notice. So you get rid of the underlying cause, like a house of cards that falls and the rest of the fear falls. You know, so you can do this thing. You can also, without knowing an image, do sensations.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:04):
Uh-huh.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (16:04):
Metaphor so that you don't have to have the image. But the main thing between ART and the EMDR is since I can control how it's done, I've been able to do things no one else in the world can do with my trainees. I've recently figured out how to do ADHD without meds in a session. I've done it a handful of times. I have someone who's done it ten times. I'm going to see if maybe I can get a study on that because It worked. And so most people don't understand how having ADHD works. They think their brain's moving really fast and they can't keep up. And they're all disorganized. But normally, what happens is the brain's processor is too slow. Hmm. Not too fast. So I figured out a way I want to do it with ART. And the free intro, there's a woman who talks about how it works.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (17:09):
Oh, interesting. With the ADHD?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (17:11):
Yep. When I tried that, I also do OCD, I do reading, because people in the class couldn't read that well. So I tried something for dyslexia, and within one session they read and understood. So I can do these things. Nobody can. You see they're very different from free associating where you can control what you're doing. You just free associate.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (17:37):
So tell me about, wow, that's, that's incredible that it's, you know, with all these different things that Also are oftentimes also seen as biologically based. Have you done any research on your work?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (17:50):
Well, the earliest research was, I think in 2010 at the University of South Florida they did with veterans. And they found that for all the PTS, all the things that they had as a negative for them, it took an average of 3.5 sessions to get rid of everything. And he said, you're the flagship because we study five things and you've come out to be the flagship. Now Yale is doing a study on ART with HIV, where my company and Yale are joining together and they're going in July to Kenya. Okay. In Africa. And they're going to train 24-- I don't travel now, but my people do-- So they're going to go down with some Yale people and they're going to train them up. And they want to do an HIV study.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (18:50):
Oh, wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (18:51):
And right now we're studying grief at Mayo Clinic, that then three others study, I believe, and now it's with the NIH grant-- the government-- to study grief for caregivers hoping that if ART is successful, when the people they're caring for die, they're not going to have a major depression. We are trying to get rid of the PTS before it forms. That's one of the first studies to ever try that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (19:24):
Wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (19:25):
And the Canadian French-- so in Canada they're studying ART for, you know, working with the military. So the military are doing an initial study of ART. So we've had some, you know, some good people on board that believe and want to do it, I mean--Yale called me, I didn't call them-- they'd like to train some people in Europe because the head person knew it worked-- USF. And you saw somebody walk into the building, very informed--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:01):
Uh-huh.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (20:02):
-- and three weeks later, the guy walked in with no problem, he followed him. He said, "How come you can walk now so well?" And he said, because I'm in the ART study. He went and he learned about ART. Then when he got over to Yale. Yeah. He called me and said, could you train some of my staff? And I said don't have to ask me twice. <Laugh>
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(20:25):
<Laugh>. Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (20:27):
Yeah. So we've done three trainings there so far.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:30):
So with something like OCD or so on, like what is, what are you targeting in those cases?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (20:38):
Yeah. And so it's very interesting. So I think I have a higher power that tells me what to do, at least with the therapy-- maybe not in other parts of my life-- but, with the therapy, whatever it is, wants it out there. And so I went to bed and I thought, 'What if you don't have a scene, but you want to apply this script? What do you do?' I thought about it, thought about it. I test my trainees to see if they can come up with the answer. So I'll simply tell you what the answer is. And I have a script that does it. So maybe I'll ask you. So if you don't have a direct scene or you know something in your mind, what do you have that puts people in front of you for help? Can you think of what that would be?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:31):
I mean sensations....
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (21:34):
That's very true. It's not--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:36):
Thematic.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (21:38):
Not what I'm thinking of, but that's very true, because we do sensations all the time. Yeah. Give you a hint. It's another S word.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:47):
A story.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (21:49):
Yeah. A story. All good stuff.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(21:51):
I'm not sure what is it?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (21:55):
Okay. I'll tell you... Symptoms.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (22:01):
Now you have to get the symptoms in front of the brain, and I figured out a way to do it. So that's the third day of training. So the first day is moving a sensation, I do word play to confuse the brain. So we get right to the limited. You have a headache, I say 'head it off'--I have different things I say-- so that's the first day. Second day is how to do trauma with that script. Third day is how to do everything else that's ongoing.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (22:33):
So three scripts. Then you go out and you can do it right away. People love it. You know, people love ART because they don't have to work so hard.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(22:42):
Sure. So like a symptom for OCD, like you're, triggering the OCD in the ART session? You're saying there was a script?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (22:53):
There's a script to show your brain.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (22:56):
Hmm. And is that tailored to, I'm thinking of like an exposure with response prevention. You might write a script of the person's OCD, you know, where they kind of, 'I touched this and---'
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (23:07):
I would just, I would just say this, without saying too much about the protocol, because that's... I'd be... I would just say the client does all the work. We just guide.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:23):
Sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (23:24):
You shouldn't work too hard doing ART and compassion fatigue is gone, because I don't have to give you any facts-- I don't have to hear it. No, unlike long exposure, which is pretty miserable.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:40):
Yeah. Where you have to kind of, they tell the story over and over and over.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (23:44):
Horrible. And so, someone asked me once in a conference, we were talking to a group of social workers in Washington, and raised their hand, "they asked me, "What do you think of prolonged exposure?" and I said, well, I think it's prolonged and we're accelerated-- next question. Because it's right in the name at that point, right in our name. I don't understand--It's not a good name for a therapy.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (24:17):
Yeah. By the way it has a device. You sit in it, they show who you are and they shake it up. I said that the guy running it said they hate me. I said, I understand. Because I didn't like it at all.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (24:30):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I know you don't want to give away the protocol, right. But just, just to help me kind of get conceptualization of this. So you have some sort of target, whether it be an image, whether it be a sensation, whether it be a symptom, and then there's eye movements involved, there's a script, and that one intervention-- it sounds like you mentioned-- is kind of replacing the image with a different image I was kind of reading...
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (25:03):
It's called 'Rescripting'.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:06):
Rescripting.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (25:06):
And that's what the people who are doing research call it, they say you're rescripting. They do not have the rescripting unless it happens naturally without their input. They don't. But I mean, when you do a cognitive injury, maybe there's a little bit like seeing it across the street, if you're stuck. But I see... We don't get stuck, we do stuck as part of the protocol. We do things with stuck.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:42):
Yeah. Yeah. I was reading that in your comparison between EMDR and the accelerated resolution therapy. Right. You were kind of saying that you use metaphors or so on, or having them imagine a situation. They're stuck and then kind of yeah. Imagining getting unstuck and not necessarily even connected to the thing they're working on, but more just like the experience of being stuck and unstuck.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (26:09):
We train lots of EMDR people who see the difference. But I, there, doesn't really take the metaphorical work I do and do anything much with it. There was so much more to do. Now, Francine Shapiro is a great woman for getting the EMs, the eye movements out there. But I don't agree with the free associating, because dreams/REM does that and we don't always get help. If you make it more focused to know where you're going, it's just that much better. In fact, I have a picture of Francine Shapiro with me in the book because I met her. But I was doing the EMDR. I had my hand slapped and said, 'Don't do it like that'. And so I do appreciate her for getting the eye movements into the world. I want to make sure I'm clear on that. But I think she didn't know what to do with them and said, 'Well, like a blank slate-- let's just have people free associate'. But I'm a very proactive therapist-- I've always been in it for 40 years. I've always been using metaphors even before I developed ART in 2008. Always done that. So if there is a higher power they said, 'well, she's a good woman because she wants to hit it right on.'
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(27:38):
I actually did an interview with somebody in Europe who had published their work on using EEG during EMDR and the research and looking at kind of what's happening in the brain during the bilateral stimulation. And it was really interesting, like you're talking about, right. With REM sleep, you know, it's kind of engaging that part of our brain that helps to process. And, and so I'm also wondering about, you know, it sounds like this rescripting, like I know that sometimes that's a technique with nightmares for the person. Kind of, you know, rescripts or has like a, a, you know, kind of having it go differently or so on. And then kind of helping with the, the nightmares and after sleep-- but, so you're kind of bringing in the EMDR along with that. What, what were your earlier kinds of influences before you got trained in EMDR? You mentioned you've always been kind of more directive and more, you know---
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (28:33):
I've always used Gestalt with talk therapy in a way, but, but more talk. I've used metaphors. So if I have a woman say whose husband is drinking and is very bad for the kids in the family, I might say to her, "Look, your husband's on the Titanic... the kids are in a lifeboat screaming for you to go with them. What are you going to do?" So that's very clear to see a picture, which is what REM does. REM shows you images that are free associative kind of. And so it's always been clear to do that and just common sense as well. But yeah, I think I've just been right on-- I don't mince words. People want to know what you think and I may tell them what I think straight up and just in the way my brain works, which I think was perfect for ART-- I tell my ART therapist when I train them, 'if REM could do what ART does, we would not need therapists anymore', because it would be the protocol and we be done, but it free associates, so that's what causes the problem sometimes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:03):
Yeah. Now tell me a little bit about another diversion from EMDR is that you have the therapist kind of engage with the client after they've done the processing or that round of bilateral stimulation-- can you tell me a little more about that,or kind of the thinking on that?--
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (30:22):
You mean when I'm done with the whole process or during the process?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:26):
It sounded, you know, like like you're saying in EMDR, you might do the bilateral stimulation, say 'What came up for you?' and then saying 'Go with that'-- I think that I was reading that you were saying that rather than just saying 'Go with that', the therapist might actually engage in a conversation about what came up.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (30:44):
So first of all, what I know about it, if you stop the eye movements, you stop the processing for that thing. And so you can do a lesson, talk about something very quick in between if that's going to be helpful, that might be one of my interventions I do or something. But basically, we try to keep it moving because I want my therapist to get it done in their timeframe. And the ways to speed it up, and that's in the script just to make sure they do get done. But if you have something you want to say, it could be appropriate to stick it in-- the brain might accept it or not-- because It's not mind control. No, all the freedom of the client---
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(31:38):
Yeah. Okay. So that's not like a big piece of the conversation around what has come up as they're processing.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (31:46):
No, I might stick something in that I say, "Well think on this, see what you think about" "what do you think about this?" --you know and then they'll say, "Yeah, that's true" or "Well, I don't feel that way," ok, so we'll move on.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:03):
Yeah. Okay.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:04):
The point is you can say a few things if you want to with time preventing
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:11):
Yeah. Yeah.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:13):
Because you're changing the brain, I think, giving a new perspective. If you were to say to me, 'What's your whole idea of therapy in a nutshell?' I would say this, I would say "Change the perspective."
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:30):
Hmm.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:31):
Otherwise what are you doing?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:33):
Sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:34):
Not much.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:36):
Well, that actually leads me into my next piece, which is I know that you also diverge in the kind of-- how you address cognitions.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:44):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:45):
So can you say a little bit about that? So as I think of perspective perspective changing that, you know, I oftentimes think of that cognitive flexibility changing the cognition--
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:56):
Right. Oh, another difference between ART and the EMDR is that EMDR cares about cognitions. I only care about them if I want to erase it-- of the cognition. Because when you change the images to positive, the cognitions change naturally. For example, people often learn as they do ART that it wasn't their fault. They have all this guilt, but then they see the scene, they see what's happening and they go, 'You know what? I don't think that was my fault' or 'I don't think that little girl I was should hold onto that guilt.' So they get more of a perspective of distance. So when EMDR tries to desensitize, I go beyond that. I call it-- it's my word--I call it "Positization" or "Positize" and once you “positize”, the cognitions change to the new imaging. See and you segue the sensations. So you don't have to work real hard. I don't have to convince you it wasn't your fault in the prefrontal cortex, when you don't believe me, I go emotionally and I can move it with a, maybe a metaphor or something, and you learn yourself on your own, 'hey, that wasn't my fault.'
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(34:29):
Yeah. Well, tell me actually a little more about that if you don't mind, because some people through EMDR, you know, kind of come to that themselves, they realize 'It wasn't my fault,' sometimes they, you know, in EMDR you might bring in like a wise figure or a nurturing figure and sometimes, you know, through that conversation, oftentimes they can get to that not being their fault. Or again, if they're stuck, you might use a cognitive interview, you know, who's at fault -- adult or a 7-year-old or so on, and then suddenly there's kind of that shift. Do you have, is there, and again, it might change with the moment, but do you have any kind of approach for that if somebody is not getting to that place of 'It's not my fault'?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (35:14):
Right. So the brain, their brain does all the work. But if EMDR could finish trauma in one session, like I do every time that I would like that as a coexisting kind of therapy. However, I've seen it take weeks, months, or people have come with years and no resolve. So either therapist wasn't doing their job or EMDR just, it takes a long time. She, Francine wants to get to know the person really well. That could take a lot of sessions. I don't want to know you well because if you do ART, you already believe in it. because it just got rid of your headache.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:56):
Yeah.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (35:57):
Hey, that works. This is cool. I said, yeah, it's working, don't worry. So there are things that slow it down that Francine--and she's very afraid of a heightened emotion where I'm not--because we'll process right through it. You don't believe somebody with a heightened motion or they're going to leave and be not well. So what do I…back to the question-- you mean when someone's stuck-- are we talking about that again?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (36:26):
Yeah. Well a little bit. Like if they're stuck or if they're not coming to that realization on their own that it wasn't their fault, for example.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (36:34):
I could easily also just say, "how old were you? Go see if at that age you should know"-- with Gestalt, and ask your earlier self if you don't apparent them in your mind or tell your earlier self if you think it was their fault, go face them- see what happens. So I do a lot again with the Gestalt once we hit that part. So it's all about the client learning for themselves and maybe having heard it somewhere on tv connecting to something. And you see clients are very smart and they don't know it, because You don't get into the subconscious that way as we do. So, for example, I had a guy, he comes in, he goes, "I'm having panic attacks" -- "Why?"-- "I'm cheating on my wife."
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (37:30):
So I said why don't you, until you make a decision about who you want to be with, you probably have the panic attacks, but let's go and explore what your brain thinks you really ought to do right now. So I do the eye move and he comes back and says "it's very weird that my brain said this, but my brain said I should go and live alone and get myself together before I decide who to be with."-- Now that's what a therapist would want someone to say.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38.07):
Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (38:08):
You go like, bingo. And then maybe he heard it on tv-- I don't know where he heard the right thing. Sure. And then at the end I said, "What did you think of this session?" He said, "I didn't know I was so smart!"
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:21):
<Laugh>, He had that kind of wisdom all along.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (38:21):
Yeah, it was in there, but you have to pull it out because a lot of emotions get in the way.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:26):
Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (38:32):
Like, like do you want another example?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:35):
That would be great.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (38:36):
So I'm doing a training in Florida at the time, and the woman is on the second of three days. And at the end of the second she gets a message from her best friend that her husband just died.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:51):
Oh wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (38:52):
She's like, 'I want to be in the third day so bad, but I don't know, I think I should go be with her. I will have guilt if I don't go.' So we did ART on that actually. And what came out of the ART, and I did make a suggestion about what I thought, but what came out was, 'I'll call my friend and see if she needs me right now. Or when people leave and she's alone, I'll see what suits her better.' And the friend says, 'could you please come when everyone's gone? because I'm really going to need somebody then.' And then she stayed for the third day, which she really wanted to do.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(39:34):
Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (39:35):
She got to be with her friend at the most needed time. So it worked out, but it's not a solution she would've thought of without doing the ART.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (39:44):
Sure. So, so you, it's almost like using the eye movement, so the bilateral stimulation to get the person, you know, kind of accessing that wisdom.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (39:54):
Right. Totally true. Totally. And they get surprised. So I'll do it on somebody who was teased as a child. I'll say, go back there and tease that person with your friends or something, whatever you want. He goes, after I do it, he goes "You'll never guess who showed up. I haven't seen this guy in ages." The brain gives just surprises--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:21):
Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (40:22):
--as you get less engaged with the problem.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:26):
Yeah. It also, it makes me think of almost some hypnosis you know, techniques where they're redoing the scene or bringing in, you know somebody for the scene.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (40:38):
There's a difference between ART and hypnosis. First of all, as EMDR knows, the brain waves are different-- they're not the same. Secondly, I don't know hypnosis, but I think they get people really relaxed, and they sneak in the back door where ART says, 'take the worst part of your problem, we're going to see it right now.' So we go for the worst part right into it. Hypnosis gets you really relaxed and in the back door. That's what I think happens.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:09):
Okay. And a question for you too about the bilateral stimulation. It sounds like you only use eye movements. Do you use anything else as you know, sound or vibration or tapping?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (41:23):
Yeah. I always for a long time used a balsa wood stick with the index card on top, and rest my arm on a chair and do it then no problem, but lots of people like to use their hands. So if someone can see shadows, and can move their eye socket, it's not about seeing anything-- it's about moving the eye sockets, like when... to access that healing. So the only question I can never answer, well, I do answer it-- I'll tell you how is, "what do you do if someone has no eyes?-- Like literally can't move their [eyes]?" I refer them out to someone with tapping that does ART. They do my therapy, but they tap or they use something similar. Ears-- no good-- hearing, right, left-- the researcher says, 'forget that'. Tapping some part of the eye movements is ok. So I'd find someone who does my therapy tapping and I would make a referral because I only use the eye movements.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:33):
I see.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (42:34):
That's being, that's the hardest question I ever get.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:36):
Sure, sure. So you wouldn't do anything but eye movements. But maybe people that are trained in the work that does other things.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (42:43):
Also don't do telehealth-- I want to see the whole body. Sure. Want to be there. If you're going through a minute of a rough time, it wouldn't be too long. I want to do it in the state where I'm licensed, which is Connecticut, giving up my Florida license, because I'm going to be here from now on. Yeah. And so yeah. The reason is I don't like how it looks on the screen. What if your screen goes out and you can't reach the client? Yeah. I had someone talk about it during our yearly conference and she said, well, if you are in trouble you may have to call 9-1-1. I don't want the backup of 9-1-1. That is not a good backup for me.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:30):
Yeah. Good. And tell me about the training opportunities. So you've got the book that you've written and Right. We were talking actually a little bit before we started that you all have trained several thousand clinicians in the approach.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (43:45):
Maybe 16,000--A lot.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:48):
16,000. Yes.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (43:48):
Fifteen years in small groups of ten/twelve-- that's a lot given it's word of mouth. People come because they hear about it. Mary spent that a great, I talked about ART all day. She loves it. So I thought it would make it blow away because it's nothing like they've ever seen before or as quick as healing as this. But if you want more sessions at the end of the script it says, you can say, 'what else might you want to work on with ART?' or 'Is there anything else you want to work on with ART?' and they'll come up with more things if you do eye movements everyone's got a bunch of things in there. I, you know, if you want to do it, you can do that because they worry about 'Oh, it's so quick.'
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:39):
And so you do a three-day train training, is that right? Is that in Connecticut?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (44:43):
It's three days. We have 66 trainers across the country. Oh wow. Because I won't travel. Sure. And so it's a three day training wherever you see it on the web and you can get their offer by acceleratedresolutiontherapy.com. We have that too. And then we have a bunch of trainings every week-- some weeks it could be 30 trainings-- some months, I should say, could be weeks but months. So there's a three day advanced training. I did that. So I built a training room that holds nine people. Okay. If people want to come to me, they can, and I do things a little bit different. The advanced training teaches you, first of all, how to do a problem in a half hour.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (45:35):
Uh huh.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (45:36):
With a metaphor. Yeah. And secondly, you learn something called the 'Fear Flip' for people who are afraid to change. We do it metaphorically in the fear. We have past tense, present tense, and future tense in the fear.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (45:53):
Sure. Wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (45:55):
Metaphorically. Right. Then you learn a script for dyslexia, pain, we're going to put in the ADHD script, dyslexia. Did I repeat that one?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:11):
Oh, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Dyslexia.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:14):
Well that's great. Well, that's wonderful that you're applying it to all these different, you know, issues. And it sounds like clinicians are having great success and you are doing some research, and training. So that's wonderful. It's great. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk more about the Accelerated Resolution Therapy.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (46:35):
You want to take my training?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:37):
I am interested. Yeah. I'm very interested. And you were saying that there's something on Wednesdays, there's like a free
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (46:44):
Right. It's free. So every fourth Wednesday at 6:00 PM Eastern, if you go to the web, www.acceleratedresolutiontherapy.com or ART works with the 's' now.com, on the very top it says free intro. What I do, I talk about the brain. I show videos of people after a session to show you the breadth of what ART can do--I had someone say to me after watching it "It sounds like a testimonial", I said, "yeah, and you will too after you train."
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:21):
Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (47:22):
... Because You'll see it works, and you'll be excited also.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:26):
Wonderful. Well that's great. Well, we will link to all of the resources on the website when we publish the podcast. And I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you so much for speaking with me today.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (47:38):
Well, today it's my favorite topic,
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:40):
Great. Wonderful. Take care. Bye-Bye.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (47:44):
Thank you, thank you!
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.: (47:45)
Thank you for joining us today. If you'd like to receive continuing education credits for the podcast you just listened to, please go to therapyonthecuttingedge.com and click on the link for CE. Our podcast is brought to you by the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, where we provide trainings for therapists in evidence-based models through live and online workshops, on-demand workshops, consultation groups, and online one-way mirror trainings. To learn more about our trainings and treatment for children, adolescents, families, couples, and individual adults, with our licensed experienced therapists in-person in the Bay Area, or throughout California online, and our employment opportunities, go to sfiap.com. To learn more about our associateships and psych assistantships and low fee treatment through our nonprofit Bay Area Community Counseling and Family Institute of Berkeley, go to sf-bacc.org and familyinstituteofberkeley.com. If you'd like to support therapy for those in financial need and training and evidence-based treatments, you can donate by going to BACC’s website at sfbacc.org. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit so all donations are tax deductible. Also, we really appreciate your feedback. If you have something you're interested in, something that's on the cutting edge of the field of psychotherapy, and you think therapists out there should know about it, send us an email. We're always looking for advancements in the field of psychotherapy to create lasting change for our clients.
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including family systems, cognitive behavioral therapy, emotionally focused couples therapy, eye movement desensitization reprocessing, motivational interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using emotionally focused couples therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma;
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:26):
And our center for ADHD and oppositional and Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches. In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (02:19):
Today I’ll be speaking with Laney Rosenzweig who is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and has been in the mental health field since 1989. Laney is the Founder/Developer of Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART). She is the CEO of Rosenzweig Center for Rapid Recovery, which trains clinicians in ART. ART has a treatment protocol that is directive, standardized and easy to apply. It is an eye movement therapy. Her introduction of the Voluntary Image Replacement (VIR), which guides clients to erase negative images from view in their mind, is a unique and powerful way to quickly eliminate triggers and eradicate symptoms. Laney has traveled the globe training licensed mental health professionals in ART and has over 65 ART trainers. She is available for presentations to civilian and military groups and there is an intro to ART every 4th Wednesday of the month.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:18):
Hi, Laney. Welcome. Thanks for joining.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (03:21):
Thank you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:23):
Yeah. Thanks so much for taking the time today to talk with me about ART. I'm really excited to learn more about it. You know, I've, I've heard more from other folks around accelerated Resolution therapy and, you know, it's kind of an offshoot of the EMDR from my understanding. And people have been really finding it very helpful with their clients. So I wanted to learn more about you and your work and ART and kind of what you're doing with it. I always like to first start off and find out about, you know, your evolution of your thinking. Kind of, you know, how you got to doing what you're doing with the work that you're doing.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (04:01):
Sure. So, I took an…first of all, I had a stroke four years ago. My voice has changed everything else the same. So I try to talk very clearly. I take the scenic route and go slow. So I love metaphors by the way. So I took training in 2007 in EMDR and took the whole thing. And what I didn't like with the free association aspect. I'd like to be direct, I'd like to be as quick as possible. So I changed it and I thought, "What if I put the eye movements right on the problem?"-- and I was getting results like one time for trauma and they're done. I did one time for OCD, he never looked back. When I checked, he said, I'm fine. So I thought, "Wow, you know, this is cool." So I thought it was EMDR and I even wrote a paper in the local newspaper.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (05:06):
I wrote an article about me with EMDR and then I went for supervision. I didn't feel like I fit in because I had no questions--everyone else did. But I went for supervision with an EMDR supervisor and she said, you're not doing EMDR and I don't know what you're doing, so do it our way or call it something else. I decided in 2008 to start calling it something else and start writing down what I do. And actually we're pretty opposite of EMDR because I wrote a paper on what Francine Shapiro says and what I say, and they're directly opposed. However, most EMDR people-- cause I've trained thousands of people-- don't do the face Francine Shapiro method. It takes too long. They find it cumbersome, but most of all, it can leave people half processed. So I've had people who went to the ER after an EMDR session.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (06:20):
Now, and I've had it sometimes, like it'll take years and not be done. So for example, I had someone from 9/11 who had EMDR and she came to see me and we did something called the "SUDs": subjective unit of distress. She went from a ten to a six with EMDR. But she could still see the body parts. So I took her in and within one hour session we erased from her mind the body parts and negative images and she went to zero. So I feel like we're more complete and we also deal with images and we do re-scripting. That means, you come in and you have a good dream to take over your nightmare. That's how it was done so quickly. So actually we're a better REM--Rapid eye movement sleep-- because you feel awake, you can control the dream. You feel wide awake, and this is not hypnosis, and if you change it, then you're better because the amygdala, the part of the brain with the emotional side, changes while the prefrontal cortex, the brain thinking side, stays the same as all the facts. Once you eliminate the negative images and sensations, you're done and they can't believe it. I call my book "Too Good to be True" because the prefrontal cortex, thinking brain says, "How can we be done?" but the emotional side says, "Yes, you see good images and you're done."
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (08:02):
Mm. Wow. That's incredible
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (08:05):
<Laugh>. Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (08:05):
Tell me, tell me about that. Erasing the images from your mind.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (08:54):
When you do eye movements. Like say you want to remember something at night and you think, "Okay, I want to remember this tomorrow morning", but you don't write it down. The brain during REM or during the sleep cycles will erase things that it thinks it's maybe not that important. So I use the same eye movements and the way that I do Accelerated Resolution Therapy. The way we do it is to also erase and replace things to something I learned how to do by listening to clients who say, "Gee, I can't see that old stuff anymore".
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (08:54):
Yeah.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (08:54):
I learned for each phase, even for doing Gestalt--I used to be good with Gestalt in college-- but I didn't want people throwing pillows around my office. I never used the Gestalt until I did the eye movements and could do it with eye movements in the client's mind. You can reach back and talk to their earlier selves and collect things. So maybe Freud would be very proud of me because he brought up what's wrong in the past and I know how to deal with it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (09:26):
Yeah. Yeah. Actually having a way to address it. Exactly.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (09:30):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (09:30):
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And I know that oftentimes that is very powerful-- bringing that adult self into that child self or in internal family systems. They kind of use that in ways in some of the cognitive beliefs in EMDR that's been used a lot, although I don't know if that's what's originally in Francine Shapiro's kind of work. Yeah.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (09:54):
He does cognitive interviews only when the client's stuck very quickly, then goes back to free associating. So I tried EMDR one time and I said to the client, "Go with that! Go with it! Go with that!" And he said, "Go with what?" And I said, "I think it's the last thing you thought of." So I was terrible at that then. I'm much better when I do it in the directive way that we do it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (10:23):
Sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (10:24):
And as far as IFS, I respect it, but you have to name the parts. It is a lot of work. I just simply use a Gestalt and have the adult person in front of me tell their earlier selves they're okay. Fritz Pearls who used to have an empty chair and say, "There's your dad. Yell At your dad." Well, I do it in the mind with the thought, and it works really well because for phobias, for example--I will tell you, I do a free intro every fourth Wednesday on my website, ART work now.com, on the website it says free intro--and I have a link for a woman, she cannot go up the stairs without great fear because as a 5-year-old child at the beach, she thought they'd fall through the spaces in the sea.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (11:19):
Oh wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (11:20):
So in front of a group, I did a demo in about 40 minutes. I said, "Can you go up the stairs over here?" So on the stairwell for the outside-- fire escape--she goes up and down. The next morning I said, "Can I video it?" So on my free intro that people can watch, you'll see her go up with no hands-- I didn't tell her to do that-- and with no hands right after I had done the ART with her the day before. Now [she] no longer has fear of steps. Because the adult version tells her earlier herself in her mind, "It's okay." Let's get rid of the bad sensations. Let's update your computer, that's what ART does.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (12:13):
Yeah. And so tell me a little bit about the process-- that's amazing that, within just one session, having that significant change. What is the process of ART?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (12:24):
So I'll tell you in general, because we don't give the steps away. People could try it and then that'd be devastating. Literally the idea is to show the brain the problem by envisioning whatever it is, and doing the processing. The way we do it, we have a certain amount of eye movements and I do script . We learn a script as a therapist, you go out, you can use a script right away, and clients don't mind.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (12:59):
We do a practicum in the training. So they resolve their own issues very quickly. And I will say, I'm doing things like alcoholism or substance abuse. Eating disorders may take a little longer-- just cravings, what we call secondary gains. So, much faster-- could be one to five sessions-- but much faster than regular, you know, therapy that's out there.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D (13:30):
Wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (13:31):
And not having to have them see detail when we do it because we just go through the steps. We do not even know what the problem was. So kids will like it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (13:43):
Yeah. Yeah.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (13:44):
It's a procedure, like going to the dentist...you take out decay, you put in a good filling, you're done... Much like that for trauma with ART, because we take out negative things, put in positive and they're done.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (13:59):
Yeah. And so I'm trained in EMDR and you know, I know that, you know, we kind of do the float back or the bridge back to kind of get to target images, and that's the image the person brings up while they're doing the eye movements or the other ways of bilateral stimulation. And then they free associate, their mind kind of begins to kind of work---
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (14:25):
Free associate. And I don't think you need to free associate.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:28):
Yeah. It seems like that's one of the biggest differences with, rather than kind of the free association and the therapist kind of staying a bit out of it and giving like just little bits of little guidance-- your approach, you're really kind of, getting much more engaged and actually processing and discussing.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (14:45):
Yes, you have a script, but we'd add interventions in the back of the manual--I have like hundreds of interventions you can add-- So we do something called a 'Scene Match'-- taking the feeling you have right now and matching it to an earlier time when you felt that way, and that's how you can get to the origin.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:08):
So a Scene Match, starting with the present emotion-- thinking about an earlier time when you had those same emotions.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (15:15):
For example, I had a woman who said, "Every time people pass in front of me, I get startled. I don't know why." And we're in the training, so I said okay, I did this scene match, and she said, "Oh my God, I'm four years old with a jack in the box."
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:34):
Wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (15:35):
And I feel scared as a 4-year-old. So I did that very quickly. I told people to pass in front of her during the training at some point, and she didn't even notice. So you get rid of the underlying cause, like a house of cards that falls and the rest of the fear falls. You know, so you can do this thing. You can also, without knowing an image, do sensations.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:04):
Uh-huh.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (16:04):
Metaphor so that you don't have to have the image. But the main thing between ART and the EMDR is since I can control how it's done, I've been able to do things no one else in the world can do with my trainees. I've recently figured out how to do ADHD without meds in a session. I've done it a handful of times. I have someone who's done it ten times. I'm going to see if maybe I can get a study on that because It worked. And so most people don't understand how having ADHD works. They think their brain's moving really fast and they can't keep up. And they're all disorganized. But normally, what happens is the brain's processor is too slow. Hmm. Not too fast. So I figured out a way I want to do it with ART. And the free intro, there's a woman who talks about how it works.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (17:09):
Oh, interesting. With the ADHD?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (17:11):
Yep. When I tried that, I also do OCD, I do reading, because people in the class couldn't read that well. So I tried something for dyslexia, and within one session they read and understood. So I can do these things. Nobody can. You see they're very different from free associating where you can control what you're doing. You just free associate.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (17:37):
So tell me about, wow, that's, that's incredible that it's, you know, with all these different things that Also are oftentimes also seen as biologically based. Have you done any research on your work?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (17:50):
Well, the earliest research was, I think in 2010 at the University of South Florida they did with veterans. And they found that for all the PTS, all the things that they had as a negative for them, it took an average of 3.5 sessions to get rid of everything. And he said, you're the flagship because we study five things and you've come out to be the flagship. Now Yale is doing a study on ART with HIV, where my company and Yale are joining together and they're going in July to Kenya. Okay. In Africa. And they're going to train 24-- I don't travel now, but my people do-- So they're going to go down with some Yale people and they're going to train them up. And they want to do an HIV study.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (18:50):
Oh, wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (18:51):
And right now we're studying grief at Mayo Clinic, that then three others study, I believe, and now it's with the NIH grant-- the government-- to study grief for caregivers hoping that if ART is successful, when the people they're caring for die, they're not going to have a major depression. We are trying to get rid of the PTS before it forms. That's one of the first studies to ever try that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (19:24):
Wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (19:25):
And the Canadian French-- so in Canada they're studying ART for, you know, working with the military. So the military are doing an initial study of ART. So we've had some, you know, some good people on board that believe and want to do it, I mean--Yale called me, I didn't call them-- they'd like to train some people in Europe because the head person knew it worked-- USF. And you saw somebody walk into the building, very informed--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:01):
Uh-huh.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (20:02):
-- and three weeks later, the guy walked in with no problem, he followed him. He said, "How come you can walk now so well?" And he said, because I'm in the ART study. He went and he learned about ART. Then when he got over to Yale. Yeah. He called me and said, could you train some of my staff? And I said don't have to ask me twice. <Laugh>
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(20:25):
<Laugh>. Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (20:27):
Yeah. So we've done three trainings there so far.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:30):
So with something like OCD or so on, like what is, what are you targeting in those cases?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (20:38):
Yeah. And so it's very interesting. So I think I have a higher power that tells me what to do, at least with the therapy-- maybe not in other parts of my life-- but, with the therapy, whatever it is, wants it out there. And so I went to bed and I thought, 'What if you don't have a scene, but you want to apply this script? What do you do?' I thought about it, thought about it. I test my trainees to see if they can come up with the answer. So I'll simply tell you what the answer is. And I have a script that does it. So maybe I'll ask you. So if you don't have a direct scene or you know something in your mind, what do you have that puts people in front of you for help? Can you think of what that would be?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:31):
I mean sensations....
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (21:34):
That's very true. It's not--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:36):
Thematic.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (21:38):
Not what I'm thinking of, but that's very true, because we do sensations all the time. Yeah. Give you a hint. It's another S word.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:47):
A story.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (21:49):
Yeah. A story. All good stuff.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(21:51):
I'm not sure what is it?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (21:55):
Okay. I'll tell you... Symptoms.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (22:01):
Now you have to get the symptoms in front of the brain, and I figured out a way to do it. So that's the third day of training. So the first day is moving a sensation, I do word play to confuse the brain. So we get right to the limited. You have a headache, I say 'head it off'--I have different things I say-- so that's the first day. Second day is how to do trauma with that script. Third day is how to do everything else that's ongoing.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (22:33):
So three scripts. Then you go out and you can do it right away. People love it. You know, people love ART because they don't have to work so hard.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(22:42):
Sure. So like a symptom for OCD, like you're, triggering the OCD in the ART session? You're saying there was a script?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (22:53):
There's a script to show your brain.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (22:56):
Hmm. And is that tailored to, I'm thinking of like an exposure with response prevention. You might write a script of the person's OCD, you know, where they kind of, 'I touched this and---'
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (23:07):
I would just, I would just say this, without saying too much about the protocol, because that's... I'd be... I would just say the client does all the work. We just guide.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:23):
Sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (23:24):
You shouldn't work too hard doing ART and compassion fatigue is gone, because I don't have to give you any facts-- I don't have to hear it. No, unlike long exposure, which is pretty miserable.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:40):
Yeah. Where you have to kind of, they tell the story over and over and over.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (23:44):
Horrible. And so, someone asked me once in a conference, we were talking to a group of social workers in Washington, and raised their hand, "they asked me, "What do you think of prolonged exposure?" and I said, well, I think it's prolonged and we're accelerated-- next question. Because it's right in the name at that point, right in our name. I don't understand--It's not a good name for a therapy.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (24:17):
Yeah. By the way it has a device. You sit in it, they show who you are and they shake it up. I said that the guy running it said they hate me. I said, I understand. Because I didn't like it at all.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (24:30):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I know you don't want to give away the protocol, right. But just, just to help me kind of get conceptualization of this. So you have some sort of target, whether it be an image, whether it be a sensation, whether it be a symptom, and then there's eye movements involved, there's a script, and that one intervention-- it sounds like you mentioned-- is kind of replacing the image with a different image I was kind of reading...
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (25:03):
It's called 'Rescripting'.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:06):
Rescripting.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (25:06):
And that's what the people who are doing research call it, they say you're rescripting. They do not have the rescripting unless it happens naturally without their input. They don't. But I mean, when you do a cognitive injury, maybe there's a little bit like seeing it across the street, if you're stuck. But I see... We don't get stuck, we do stuck as part of the protocol. We do things with stuck.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:42):
Yeah. Yeah. I was reading that in your comparison between EMDR and the accelerated resolution therapy. Right. You were kind of saying that you use metaphors or so on, or having them imagine a situation. They're stuck and then kind of yeah. Imagining getting unstuck and not necessarily even connected to the thing they're working on, but more just like the experience of being stuck and unstuck.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (26:09):
We train lots of EMDR people who see the difference. But I, there, doesn't really take the metaphorical work I do and do anything much with it. There was so much more to do. Now, Francine Shapiro is a great woman for getting the EMs, the eye movements out there. But I don't agree with the free associating, because dreams/REM does that and we don't always get help. If you make it more focused to know where you're going, it's just that much better. In fact, I have a picture of Francine Shapiro with me in the book because I met her. But I was doing the EMDR. I had my hand slapped and said, 'Don't do it like that'. And so I do appreciate her for getting the eye movements into the world. I want to make sure I'm clear on that. But I think she didn't know what to do with them and said, 'Well, like a blank slate-- let's just have people free associate'. But I'm a very proactive therapist-- I've always been in it for 40 years. I've always been using metaphors even before I developed ART in 2008. Always done that. So if there is a higher power they said, 'well, she's a good woman because she wants to hit it right on.'
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(27:38):
I actually did an interview with somebody in Europe who had published their work on using EEG during EMDR and the research and looking at kind of what's happening in the brain during the bilateral stimulation. And it was really interesting, like you're talking about, right. With REM sleep, you know, it's kind of engaging that part of our brain that helps to process. And, and so I'm also wondering about, you know, it sounds like this rescripting, like I know that sometimes that's a technique with nightmares for the person. Kind of, you know, rescripts or has like a, a, you know, kind of having it go differently or so on. And then kind of helping with the, the nightmares and after sleep-- but, so you're kind of bringing in the EMDR along with that. What, what were your earlier kinds of influences before you got trained in EMDR? You mentioned you've always been kind of more directive and more, you know---
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (28:33):
I've always used Gestalt with talk therapy in a way, but, but more talk. I've used metaphors. So if I have a woman say whose husband is drinking and is very bad for the kids in the family, I might say to her, "Look, your husband's on the Titanic... the kids are in a lifeboat screaming for you to go with them. What are you going to do?" So that's very clear to see a picture, which is what REM does. REM shows you images that are free associative kind of. And so it's always been clear to do that and just common sense as well. But yeah, I think I've just been right on-- I don't mince words. People want to know what you think and I may tell them what I think straight up and just in the way my brain works, which I think was perfect for ART-- I tell my ART therapist when I train them, 'if REM could do what ART does, we would not need therapists anymore', because it would be the protocol and we be done, but it free associates, so that's what causes the problem sometimes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:03):
Yeah. Now tell me a little bit about another diversion from EMDR is that you have the therapist kind of engage with the client after they've done the processing or that round of bilateral stimulation-- can you tell me a little more about that,or kind of the thinking on that?--
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (30:22):
You mean when I'm done with the whole process or during the process?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:26):
It sounded, you know, like like you're saying in EMDR, you might do the bilateral stimulation, say 'What came up for you?' and then saying 'Go with that'-- I think that I was reading that you were saying that rather than just saying 'Go with that', the therapist might actually engage in a conversation about what came up.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (30:44):
So first of all, what I know about it, if you stop the eye movements, you stop the processing for that thing. And so you can do a lesson, talk about something very quick in between if that's going to be helpful, that might be one of my interventions I do or something. But basically, we try to keep it moving because I want my therapist to get it done in their timeframe. And the ways to speed it up, and that's in the script just to make sure they do get done. But if you have something you want to say, it could be appropriate to stick it in-- the brain might accept it or not-- because It's not mind control. No, all the freedom of the client---
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(31:38):
Yeah. Okay. So that's not like a big piece of the conversation around what has come up as they're processing.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (31:46):
No, I might stick something in that I say, "Well think on this, see what you think about" "what do you think about this?" --you know and then they'll say, "Yeah, that's true" or "Well, I don't feel that way," ok, so we'll move on.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:03):
Yeah. Okay.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:04):
The point is you can say a few things if you want to with time preventing
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:11):
Yeah. Yeah.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:13):
Because you're changing the brain, I think, giving a new perspective. If you were to say to me, 'What's your whole idea of therapy in a nutshell?' I would say this, I would say "Change the perspective."
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:30):
Hmm.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:31):
Otherwise what are you doing?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:33):
Sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:34):
Not much.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:36):
Well, that actually leads me into my next piece, which is I know that you also diverge in the kind of-- how you address cognitions.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:44):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:45):
So can you say a little bit about that? So as I think of perspective perspective changing that, you know, I oftentimes think of that cognitive flexibility changing the cognition--
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (32:56):
Right. Oh, another difference between ART and the EMDR is that EMDR cares about cognitions. I only care about them if I want to erase it-- of the cognition. Because when you change the images to positive, the cognitions change naturally. For example, people often learn as they do ART that it wasn't their fault. They have all this guilt, but then they see the scene, they see what's happening and they go, 'You know what? I don't think that was my fault' or 'I don't think that little girl I was should hold onto that guilt.' So they get more of a perspective of distance. So when EMDR tries to desensitize, I go beyond that. I call it-- it's my word--I call it "Positization" or "Positize" and once you “positize”, the cognitions change to the new imaging. See and you segue the sensations. So you don't have to work real hard. I don't have to convince you it wasn't your fault in the prefrontal cortex, when you don't believe me, I go emotionally and I can move it with a, maybe a metaphor or something, and you learn yourself on your own, 'hey, that wasn't my fault.'
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(34:29):
Yeah. Well, tell me actually a little more about that if you don't mind, because some people through EMDR, you know, kind of come to that themselves, they realize 'It wasn't my fault,' sometimes they, you know, in EMDR you might bring in like a wise figure or a nurturing figure and sometimes, you know, through that conversation, oftentimes they can get to that not being their fault. Or again, if they're stuck, you might use a cognitive interview, you know, who's at fault -- adult or a 7-year-old or so on, and then suddenly there's kind of that shift. Do you have, is there, and again, it might change with the moment, but do you have any kind of approach for that if somebody is not getting to that place of 'It's not my fault'?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (35:14):
Right. So the brain, their brain does all the work. But if EMDR could finish trauma in one session, like I do every time that I would like that as a coexisting kind of therapy. However, I've seen it take weeks, months, or people have come with years and no resolve. So either therapist wasn't doing their job or EMDR just, it takes a long time. She, Francine wants to get to know the person really well. That could take a lot of sessions. I don't want to know you well because if you do ART, you already believe in it. because it just got rid of your headache.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:56):
Yeah.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (35:57):
Hey, that works. This is cool. I said, yeah, it's working, don't worry. So there are things that slow it down that Francine--and she's very afraid of a heightened emotion where I'm not--because we'll process right through it. You don't believe somebody with a heightened motion or they're going to leave and be not well. So what do I…back to the question-- you mean when someone's stuck-- are we talking about that again?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (36:26):
Yeah. Well a little bit. Like if they're stuck or if they're not coming to that realization on their own that it wasn't their fault, for example.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (36:34):
I could easily also just say, "how old were you? Go see if at that age you should know"-- with Gestalt, and ask your earlier self if you don't apparent them in your mind or tell your earlier self if you think it was their fault, go face them- see what happens. So I do a lot again with the Gestalt once we hit that part. So it's all about the client learning for themselves and maybe having heard it somewhere on tv connecting to something. And you see clients are very smart and they don't know it, because You don't get into the subconscious that way as we do. So, for example, I had a guy, he comes in, he goes, "I'm having panic attacks" -- "Why?"-- "I'm cheating on my wife."
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (37:30):
So I said why don't you, until you make a decision about who you want to be with, you probably have the panic attacks, but let's go and explore what your brain thinks you really ought to do right now. So I do the eye move and he comes back and says "it's very weird that my brain said this, but my brain said I should go and live alone and get myself together before I decide who to be with."-- Now that's what a therapist would want someone to say.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38.07):
Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (38:08):
You go like, bingo. And then maybe he heard it on tv-- I don't know where he heard the right thing. Sure. And then at the end I said, "What did you think of this session?" He said, "I didn't know I was so smart!"
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:21):
<Laugh>, He had that kind of wisdom all along.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (38:21):
Yeah, it was in there, but you have to pull it out because a lot of emotions get in the way.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:26):
Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (38:32):
Like, like do you want another example?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:35):
That would be great.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (38:36):
So I'm doing a training in Florida at the time, and the woman is on the second of three days. And at the end of the second she gets a message from her best friend that her husband just died.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:51):
Oh wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (38:52):
She's like, 'I want to be in the third day so bad, but I don't know, I think I should go be with her. I will have guilt if I don't go.' So we did ART on that actually. And what came out of the ART, and I did make a suggestion about what I thought, but what came out was, 'I'll call my friend and see if she needs me right now. Or when people leave and she's alone, I'll see what suits her better.' And the friend says, 'could you please come when everyone's gone? because I'm really going to need somebody then.' And then she stayed for the third day, which she really wanted to do.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.(39:34):
Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (39:35):
She got to be with her friend at the most needed time. So it worked out, but it's not a solution she would've thought of without doing the ART.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (39:44):
Sure. So, so you, it's almost like using the eye movement, so the bilateral stimulation to get the person, you know, kind of accessing that wisdom.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (39:54):
Right. Totally true. Totally. And they get surprised. So I'll do it on somebody who was teased as a child. I'll say, go back there and tease that person with your friends or something, whatever you want. He goes, after I do it, he goes "You'll never guess who showed up. I haven't seen this guy in ages." The brain gives just surprises--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:21):
Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (40:22):
--as you get less engaged with the problem.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:26):
Yeah. It also, it makes me think of almost some hypnosis you know, techniques where they're redoing the scene or bringing in, you know somebody for the scene.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (40:38):
There's a difference between ART and hypnosis. First of all, as EMDR knows, the brain waves are different-- they're not the same. Secondly, I don't know hypnosis, but I think they get people really relaxed, and they sneak in the back door where ART says, 'take the worst part of your problem, we're going to see it right now.' So we go for the worst part right into it. Hypnosis gets you really relaxed and in the back door. That's what I think happens.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:09):
Okay. And a question for you too about the bilateral stimulation. It sounds like you only use eye movements. Do you use anything else as you know, sound or vibration or tapping?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (41:23):
Yeah. I always for a long time used a balsa wood stick with the index card on top, and rest my arm on a chair and do it then no problem, but lots of people like to use their hands. So if someone can see shadows, and can move their eye socket, it's not about seeing anything-- it's about moving the eye sockets, like when... to access that healing. So the only question I can never answer, well, I do answer it-- I'll tell you how is, "what do you do if someone has no eyes?-- Like literally can't move their [eyes]?" I refer them out to someone with tapping that does ART. They do my therapy, but they tap or they use something similar. Ears-- no good-- hearing, right, left-- the researcher says, 'forget that'. Tapping some part of the eye movements is ok. So I'd find someone who does my therapy tapping and I would make a referral because I only use the eye movements.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:33):
I see.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (42:34):
That's being, that's the hardest question I ever get.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:36):
Sure, sure. So you wouldn't do anything but eye movements. But maybe people that are trained in the work that does other things.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (42:43):
Also don't do telehealth-- I want to see the whole body. Sure. Want to be there. If you're going through a minute of a rough time, it wouldn't be too long. I want to do it in the state where I'm licensed, which is Connecticut, giving up my Florida license, because I'm going to be here from now on. Yeah. And so yeah. The reason is I don't like how it looks on the screen. What if your screen goes out and you can't reach the client? Yeah. I had someone talk about it during our yearly conference and she said, well, if you are in trouble you may have to call 9-1-1. I don't want the backup of 9-1-1. That is not a good backup for me.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:30):
Yeah. Good. And tell me about the training opportunities. So you've got the book that you've written and Right. We were talking actually a little bit before we started that you all have trained several thousand clinicians in the approach.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (43:45):
Maybe 16,000--A lot.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:48):
16,000. Yes.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (43:48):
Fifteen years in small groups of ten/twelve-- that's a lot given it's word of mouth. People come because they hear about it. Mary spent that a great, I talked about ART all day. She loves it. So I thought it would make it blow away because it's nothing like they've ever seen before or as quick as healing as this. But if you want more sessions at the end of the script it says, you can say, 'what else might you want to work on with ART?' or 'Is there anything else you want to work on with ART?' and they'll come up with more things if you do eye movements everyone's got a bunch of things in there. I, you know, if you want to do it, you can do that because they worry about 'Oh, it's so quick.'
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:39):
And so you do a three-day train training, is that right? Is that in Connecticut?
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (44:43):
It's three days. We have 66 trainers across the country. Oh wow. Because I won't travel. Sure. And so it's a three day training wherever you see it on the web and you can get their offer by acceleratedresolutiontherapy.com. We have that too. And then we have a bunch of trainings every week-- some weeks it could be 30 trainings-- some months, I should say, could be weeks but months. So there's a three day advanced training. I did that. So I built a training room that holds nine people. Okay. If people want to come to me, they can, and I do things a little bit different. The advanced training teaches you, first of all, how to do a problem in a half hour.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (45:35):
Uh huh.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (45:36):
With a metaphor. Yeah. And secondly, you learn something called the 'Fear Flip' for people who are afraid to change. We do it metaphorically in the fear. We have past tense, present tense, and future tense in the fear.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (45:53):
Sure. Wow.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (45:55):
Metaphorically. Right. Then you learn a script for dyslexia, pain, we're going to put in the ADHD script, dyslexia. Did I repeat that one?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:11):
Oh, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Dyslexia.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:14):
Well that's great. Well, that's wonderful that you're applying it to all these different, you know, issues. And it sounds like clinicians are having great success and you are doing some research, and training. So that's wonderful. It's great. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk more about the Accelerated Resolution Therapy.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (46:35):
You want to take my training?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:37):
I am interested. Yeah. I'm very interested. And you were saying that there's something on Wednesdays, there's like a free
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (46:44):
Right. It's free. So every fourth Wednesday at 6:00 PM Eastern, if you go to the web, www.acceleratedresolutiontherapy.com or ART works with the 's' now.com, on the very top it says free intro. What I do, I talk about the brain. I show videos of people after a session to show you the breadth of what ART can do--I had someone say to me after watching it "It sounds like a testimonial", I said, "yeah, and you will too after you train."
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:21):
Sure, sure.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (47:22):
... Because You'll see it works, and you'll be excited also.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:26):
Wonderful. Well that's great. Well, we will link to all of the resources on the website when we publish the podcast. And I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you so much for speaking with me today.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (47:38):
Well, today it's my favorite topic,
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:40):
Great. Wonderful. Take care. Bye-Bye.
Laney Rosenzweig, MS, LMFT. (47:44):
Thank you, thank you!
Keith Sutton, Psy.D.: (47:45)
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