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T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D. - Guest
T Leanne Campbell, Ph. D is an international speaker, writer, trainer, and co-developer of EFT-related educational programs and materials. Most recently, she co-authored the first basic EFIT (Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy) text with Dr. Sue Johnson, A Primer for Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy (EFIT): Cultivating Fitness and Growth in Every Client (Routledge, 2021), as well as a workbook for therapists training in EFT (see Furrow et al., Routledge, 2022). Known for her expertise in the areas of loss and trauma, Leanne has provided hundreds of psychological assessment reports for forensic/legal and personal injury matters being considered before various levels of Court, as well as insurance companies and bodies involved in adjudicating personal injury and other loss- and trauma-based claims. In addition to maintaining a full-time private practice, providing individual, couple and family therapy and assessment services, Leanne currently co-manages a multi-site practice comprised of twenty-five clinicians and is a site co-ordinator for an Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy (EFIT) outcome study. You can learn more about Leanne’s work at www.eftvancouverisland.com. |
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W. Keith Sutton, Psy.D. - Host
Dr. Sutton has always had an interest in learning from multiple theoretical perspectives, and keeping up to date on innovations and integrations. He is interested in the development of ideas, and using research to show effectiveness in treatment and refine treatments. In 2009 he started the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, providing a one-way mirror training in family therapy with James Keim, LCSW. Next, he added a trainer and one-way mirror training in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and an additional trainer and mirror in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. The participants enjoyed analyzing cases, keeping each other up to date on research, and discussing what they were learning. This focus on integrating and evolving their approaches to helping children, adolescents, families, couples, and individuals lead to the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy's training program for therapists, and its group practice of like-minded clinicians who were dedicated to learning, innovating, and advancing the field of psychotherapy. Our podcast, Therapy on the Cutting Edge, is an extension of this wish to learn, integrate, stay up to date, and share this passion for the advancement of the field with other practitioners. |
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (00:22)
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advancements in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. In today's episode, I speak with Leanne Campbell, who's an international speaker, writer and trainer and co-developer of emotionally focused couples therapy related to educational programs and materials. Most recently, she co-authored the basic EFIT Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy Text with Dr. Sue Johnson, named a primer for Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy, cultivating fitness and growth in every client, as well as writing a workbook for therapists who are training in EFT. Leanne is known for her expertise in the areas of loss and trauma, and has provided hundreds of psychological assessment reports for forensic legal and personal injury matters being considered before various levels of court, as well as insurance companies and bodies involved in adjudicating personal injury and other loss and trauma-based claims. In addition to maintaining a full-time private practice providing individual couple and family therapy and assessment services, Leanne currently co-manages a multi-site practice compromised of 25 clinicians and a site coordinator for an emotionally focused individual therapy outcome study. You can learn more about Leanne's [email protected]. Now let's listen to the interview. Well, hi Leanne. Thanks for joining us today.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (01:56)
Thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (01:59)
Great. So I know of your work. I was doing some reaching out for some consultation for folks that have expertise in EFT, emotionally focused couples therapy, as well as trauma and complex PTSD. And so you were great to give me some consultation and I've been watching a video of you working with a couple where there's trauma. While we were talking, I also got to learn a little bit more about the work you're doing with E-FIT, the emotionally focused individual therapy, which I've been hearing a lot about. And I know a lot of folks are starting to get trained out here. And so I wanna hear about all these different things, but first I wanna hear about how you got to doing what you're doing. I'm always interested in folks’ evolution of their thinking.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (02:43)
Okay, Sure. Thank you. Well, I had the good fortune of being in a fabulous clinical psychology program as a graduate student, where we were exposed to all kinds of leaders in the field. Some individuals who focused on gestalt therapy, others more psychodynamic, others, traditional cognitive behavioral therapy. And the well-known and well-respected Dr. Susan Johnson had just arrived on the scene at the University of Ottawa and was beginning her career as an academic and following up on some of the early studies that she did on the west coast of Canada. So I was a therapist along with some of my colleagues and some of those early studies looking at the empirical efficacy of emotionally focused therapy. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (03:38)
Wonderful. Very neat.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (03:43)
And then once I left graduate school, I moved to the west coast of Canada where I worked both in academia and also in private practice, and have focused my entire career basically on working in the areas of trauma and grief and loss.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (04:05)
Okay, great. How'd you get into those focuses?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (04:10)
Well partly demand in the community and partly passion and interest. in graduate school, we had the good fortune of working with a variety of people with all kinds of presenting difficulties. And I always gravitated toward working with trauma and especially complex developmental trauma and had a lot of great support. And in fact, I'm mostly focused individual therapy, which is now being talked about a lot more than it was in years. It's actually always been a part of the model. So I've been using EFIT for years, and it was only in 2019 that Sue wrote attachment theory and practice that I think it became more known as a part of the model. And then we wrote the primer in 2022. Well, it was published in 2022.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (05:10)
Oh, wonderful. And you have a clinic or a center, is that right?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (05:14)
Yes, we have a center that's focused on EFT and EFT trainings and the development of educational materials. And we also have a private practice Campbell Psychology Group comprised it’s a three site practice. Three offices on Vancouver Island. And in fact, Sue works in one of them now. Oh,
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (05:38)
Great.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (05:39)
Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (05:39)
Wonderful. Perfect. Okay, great. For those that don't know a lot about EFT: Can you talk about what EFT is? And I'd even be interested in your perspective on EFIT to EFT cause I don't think I've really heard that story so much. I mean, I knew that Sue was working with Les Greenberg. I know I've read all her books and talking about her putting the pieces together of Bulby's work and so on.But I don't quite know much about the individual therapy and how that melded into the couples and now back into some of the individual stuff. I don't know if I speak to that.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (06:17)
Sure, of course. Well, EFT you know, we would describe it as an attachment-based humanistic experiential therapy and it's relational, whether we're working with individuals, couples, or families. So many of the studies that were done in earlier years, of course, were focused on couple therapy but indeed when we work with couples, we also change the individuals within that partnership. So in fact, we use the same interventions, we focus on the same model of growth and assumption that our clients have an innate capacity to grow and thrive and are able to do so in their most important relationships. And sometimes what we need to do is dissolve any blocks or barriers to that growth or to the secure connection with their key others.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (07:18)
Okay, great. And the way I think about attachment work and EFT is that to the extent that we can turn to our partner and they'll be responsive to us, whether talk about our bad day or that thing they said that upset us or sex or money or the kids. And also to the extent that we feel loved, accepted, respected, when those two pieces are there, things are going well and we've got that secure attachment. But when they're not, we get into these cycles where each person's usually trying to do the thing to either gain closeness or prevent distance, but sometimes it's the opposite of what the other person needs. So they end up moving farther apart. And so we're really trying to help shift that and really help them to reconnect and really be able to see that attachment drive and need that's actually their belonging to be with each other, although getting into these patterns where they're feeling rejected or hurt or alone
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (08:12)
Exactly. Yes. Lovely.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (08:16)
Great. The EFIT model, did that predate Sue's EFT, or is Les Greenberg's emotionally focused therapy and EFIT similar, or different?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (08:34)
Oh, good question. Yes. I think for sure people would identify similarities, but I think a key difference is that EFIT is very much attachment-focused. And another key difference is that, for example, in EFT, across modalities, whether we're working with individuals, couples, and families, we talk about the tango, which I think you are familiar with.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (09:07)
Sure yep of course.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (09:07)
And just for listeners who may not be, I'll just describe it briefly. So Move 1 is tuning into present-process, and you described it beautifully talking about that in the context of couple therapy. What is the cycle that they get caught in. A common cycle is the pursue-withdrawal cycle that we all know about and are familiar with, and we put up a mirror for our clients. And as we put up a mirror for our clients, whether we're working with couples, individuals, or families not only do they feel seen and heard, and understood, but they also begin to see themselves In new ways. And so that's part of it. And then we help people order their emotion in Move 2 or we talk about affect-assembly and then we go into deepening. So again, emotion-focused therapy. We assume that emotion is the key agent and target of change, and in couple therapy, we set up these encounters between the partners to create corrective emotional experiences and strengthen their bond toward a stronger felt sense of security with themselves and others. And in EFIT, all the moves are the same. So in this Move 3 of the tango, the encounter might be with the therapist: What is it like for you to share your story for the first time? What is it like to talk about this? And we focus on present process. Or the encounter might be with a spiritual figure, or it could be with the attachment figure, even someone who's deceased potentially.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (11:02)
Like an empty chair or like an imagining thing.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (11:06)
Good question. So one of the ways that it's different than, perhaps what someone might do who's trained in EFIT by Greenberg and his colleagues, is we wouldn't use empty chair, but instead it's more imaginable as you suggested.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (11:26)
Like they’re imagine talking to that person and then kinda imagining the response?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (11:30)
Exactly. So it's very much parallels couple therapy, that as you tune into yourself and as we take our clients into their experience, it's there that we then engage the encounter and have them share with the other.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (11:52)
Okay.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (11:53)
And then in Move 4, of course, we see how that landed. What was that like to share? Did that younger part of you, for example, take it in that little girl who was alone and vulnerable and hid under the bed? And then in Move five, we celebrate that and we track and reflect and highlight what the client was able to do to move into what Bovie would describe as frightening alien and unacceptable emotion. And then come through the other side of that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (12:24)
Oh, interesting. Very cool. With that tango, that idea of like slowing the down the process, like: what's happening for you right now? And then going deeper into having them really sit with that experience and communicate it, and particularly in EFT. We're dropping into those primary emotions and connecting with the vulnerabilities, and then that enactment to turn to the other. And then having that different experience of hopefully them being there for them when they're turning, especially in stage 2 in re bonding work. And then reviewing that process and processing what it was like to share or see that reaction from their partner turning towards them or whatever it might be. And then, tying the bow, putting it all together and zooming back out again of the process. So that's nice. So in EFIT you're doing that similar process, but like using the enactment between the therapist and the client, or the client and an imaginal younger self or a parent figure or somebody who's passed away or something like that. And same thing, you're processing what it's like to say that, I imagine, what do you notice that the reaction is from the other and so on?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (13:38)
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (13:39)
Neat. Okay. Very cool. I love that. it reminds me of internal family systems where you're having that conversation with those parts or also sometimes we do that in EMDR. Also I do EMDR where we're sometimes having them imagine going in and caring for their younger self or bringing in a figure or so on. So I like that added level of actually processing that through that EFT deepening. Very cool. Nice. Okay. Great. So tell me a bit about working with couples with trauma and some of the things that you notice find that's helpful or find that's different. I mean, for a lot of my clients, you know I will sometimes go from individual therapy to then couples therapy, because oftentimes we've done a lot of work individually, but oftentimes when we've put the person back in their couple that triggers a lot of the attachment difficulties and really strengthening that attachment. Or sometimes I might even do couples to individuals or things like that. But I'm always interested in people's thinking about working with their clients with trauma and really the relationship is such a healing place to help clients heal their trauma.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (15:07)
Absolutely. Yes. So I think we work in present-process, of course, and with the assumption that the past comes alive in the present. So maybe I could just walk us through an example with a couple. So the first thing we do is bring the clients in together and we tune into people's stories. And we want to join with our clients and create what we would describe as a safe haven alliance with both of the partners and hear about what brought them together, how they met, what attracted them to each other. And then of course, we also wanna understand about their stories, the stories that they bring to their current relationship. And one of the things that we know about trauma is that people often talk about having been alone in the world. It depends on the type of trauma. Sure. Uh, of course, I work a lot with first responders and veterans and military as well as people with complex developmental trauma. So if we just focus on developmental trauma from a moment, we assume that our sense of who we are is constructed and evolves in our most important relationships. So when our clients have had experiences of enduring trauma early on, of course that's going to impact the way that they view themselves, the way that they move in the world relationally, and the way that they manage their emotions. And we know from years and years of couple therapy research, but also attachment science, that there's a finite number of ways that people manage intolerable circumstances. They either tend to shut down and act out or reactively intensify their emotions, or some combination of both. And a lot of the literature shows that it's this latter, some combination of both, that we could expect to see in the couple context if one or both partners have a history of trauma. So it's important for us - I think I shared about the care model in other contexts standing for a context attachment, the relationship, the therapeutic alliance, and emotion. So it's really important for us to understand the context in which our couples live and have lived, including potentially the intergenerational context, even. And so a common pattern might be, for example - actually a case that comes to mind for me is - I was working with a beautiful couple, and this is just a brief example, and he would talk about her disappearing on him.And again, when we work with present process, we can bring this alive in the room. And indeed, what he was referencing is that she would dissociate at times. And so I was able to tune into her experience, hold him while he you know, managed his own anxiety. About being alone in the relationship and not being able to reach her, not being able to impact her, which is a typical pursuer stance.As you know, and bring her home to him and to herself in the therapy space. And then we could actually talk about what happened. We could track and reflect and put up a mirror for what happened. And then he could begin to see that her dissociation or her numbing was not about him and about rejecting him. But when we reflected in context with all those layers of experience held up for them then, he can begin to pay attention and be with her in a new way. And she was able to share with him that, that all he would need to do in a moment like that is touch her leg. And we know from the brain scan studies that touch is healing. And from all the other studies that Jim Cohen and others have done. And they found a way to communicate around that. And so from an EFT point of view, we would think about that as an initial step toward healing some of the trauma that was imprisoning her, keeping her a working distance from herself, but also from someone who wanted to love her and was there to love her and wanted to be there for her and wanted to be, as you were describing, accessible, responsive, and engaged but didn’t know how.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (19:56)
Okay, that's great. So she was dissociating and then he would get anxious or feel like it was personal or feeling rejected, and then he would typically then pursue or try to reach out or get through to her or so on. and you're saying that you were reflecting that, helping him sit with that anxiety rather than pursuing at that moment and then grounding her, and then her talking about what just happened in her experience and him witnessing that and seeing that and seeing that it wasn't necessarily just because she didn't want to be with him. And then actually having that moment where she was able to, to maybe talk about what she needed and him with the hand on her and grounding and him maybe feeling less helpless or feeling more connected or more like a resource or than hopefully her feeling less alone.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (20:49)
Exactly. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (20:51)
Great. That, that's great. Yeah.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (20:55)
Oh, sorry, go
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (20:55)
. No, no, go for it.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (20:57)
Well, one of the things that we have to talk about is our protection becomes our prism. So of course for some of our clients who have relied on numbing or shutting down or some version thereof while that saved them and protected them and allowed them to tolerate the intolerable as young children or whatever the case may be it keeps them away from themselves and their capacity to tune into their needs, their longings, their vulnerabilities, and prevents them from sharing that with others in a way that allows them to have their needs met and to not be alone in their vulnerability. So in EFT, we pay close attention to the way that our clients move in the world emotionally and relationally and help them to move toward a felt sense of security with themselves and others that allows them to continue to grow and thrive in their relationships.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (22:05)
Oh, great. And I was wondering about this too because I was at a training with Dick Schwartz and IFS, and we were talking about in EFT you’re turning to your partner to get that attachment and soothing and in, he was conceptualizing IFS that your adult self is soothing that younger self and being your own attachment figure. And I'm wondering if there's any if that plays out in EFIT at all. Of the person developing that ability to be almost their own attachment figure, it sounds like, in those imaginal ones. But I was wondering, any thoughts on that?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (22:43)
Yes. I could walk you through an example. So one of the individuals that we write about in the book, Sandy, had a history of trauma multiple incidents at different ages and stages, and in an initial encounter with her younger self, that younger self rejected her and was unwilling to make contact. So in EFIT, much like in couple therapy, we talk about moving our clients toward a more coherent, competent, integrated self. A sense of self that can tune in to one cell and then use that internal compass to connect with others. So initially that, that was very hard for her. And so again, as an EFIT therapist, we join with our clients. I get the details of the bedroom that this little girl is in, how old is she? What does she look like? And then we rely on attachment science and everything we know about attachment, and we talk about following and leading. And in this case, I might say something like “As you see that little girl and she's turned away from you and she's not trusting, what are you drawn to do?” And older Sandy says, “I'll just sit with her. I'll just sit with her and I'll wait for her.” Which is brilliant from an attachment point of view and so as we proceed in the sessions that sense of trust begins to build. And in stage two we talk about moving into core defining dilemmas, core pivotal experiences that have shaped model of self and other, So in the case of trauma, we talk about potentially using a traumatic scene or incident to prime emotion. And we rely on that emotion to move our clients in new ways to provide some solution to the vulnerability that had no solution. When a child is helpless, of course, and alone and confused and doesn't understand what's happening. And so in this stage two session, and again, it's a humanistic experiential therapy, so we know that our client's windows of capacity can expand in Stage one. We know that integration shifts, there's more flexibility in model of self and other in stage one. And our clients have encountered frightening alien and unacceptable emotion. It's all become more manageable. So in Stage two just as is the case in couple therapy, we can move our clients into deeper levels of experience today and hold them for longer periods. And from an experiential point of view, and Ann Gennilen talks a lot about this in his book on focusing, we know that the experience will take hold and our clients can move into an absorbed state.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (26:22)
So now what happens in this stage two session with Sandy is that she goes into a scene where she was abused as a little girl and we dim the lights on the perpetrator to manage the threat. That's part of what we do and we illuminate and make brighter this contact between an older, wiser self, older Sandy, and this other young helpless little girl. And again, we rely on attachment science and the stronghold that experience now has as she moves into deeper levels of experiencing levels 4, 5, 6, or seven on the experiencing scale. And older, Sandy takes the little girl, the younger self, out of that scene, takes her out and then walk down a dusty road, arm and arm and they're together. And then we again, we talk about taking clients to their leading edge and as they create distance from the perpetrator and from that scene and are back on the warm steps of their home down the road, then she's able to move into some of the nausea and deep feelings that were intolerable to feel at the time of the event. So that's what we think about in terms of clients getting stuck. It's not being able to feel.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (28:08)
Like processing those emotions.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (28:09)
Exactly. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (28:10)
So they get stuck and the emotional flashbacks happen.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (28:14)
Exactly. So, so now she's not alone and she's able to feel deeply and completely some of what she would've not had any safety or capacity to feel. As a nine-year-old of course. and so we talk about moving our clients into emotion and through emotion. To create these corrective emotional experiences or emotional epiphanies. And part of what happens in that scene as well which is common in trauma, is that she's able to tell that little girl, it's not your fault. There's nothing you could have done. It could never be your fault. And in EFT, as you know we would have her repeat that because in stage two we talk about restructuring self and system. So I ask older “Tell her again, Say it again. It's not your fault.” And there too, we begin to see the shame dissolving and the sense of who she is shifting.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (29:21)
Great. Oh, that's wonderful. And the emotion that she's feeling in that moment while sitting on that warm step is almost like she's like processing the loss or like the aftermath of that experience?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (29:45)
Well, I really love your question because I think loss is really definitely an important part of work in trauma. In that moment, what she did was revisit again the scene, but from that vantage point and then she felt again, another layer, another wave of the horrific feeling that she had not yet been able to process. I love your question about grief and loss. That's right. That is on the other side of working through trauma, is then to grieve what wasn't. And we see this in couple therapy all the time, probably the tapes you're watching I think, that when couples come together and feel the beauty of secure connection, then so too, of course, does it put them in touch with everything that wasn't. And the same is true in EFIT, is that when our clients can begin to feel what's possible, it also puts them in touch with what wasn't.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (30:56)
That's great. It was making me think of Pete Walker's work on complex PTSD and really talking about the mourning that. Kinda a necessary process of mourning and being sad for that younger child and for yourself and about what you didn't have. And that oftentimes clients will not wanna go there and not wanna have pity on themselves or so on. But really being able to just honor what that younger self had gone through and being able to feel those feelings and let that move through. Well, that's wonderful. I love it. So with the trauma work with couples, that's part of what you're saying too as they start feeling that secure relationship,there's even that morning of not having had it, because it's so incredible to have had this at this time. When you're talking about the context and that sense of self you know, it made me think about something I talk about with some of the couples I work with, where there is CPTDS that there's you know, growing up in that invalidating environment, like the parent hitting the child, and then five minutes later, later saying, Well, why are you crying? And the kids don't know what's real or not, they're like, Wait a second. Their sense of self that they were hurt and crying now becomes put into question by the parent. And with the couples that I work with, I oftentimes find out for any couple, if they're feeling invalidated, that's painful and hurtful. But especially when I've got a client with trauma, oftentimes there can be a significant reaction of not feeling seen or feeling invalidated and so important in the couple's relationship for the person to be seen or be validated by their partner. And I think what's really nice about EFT is in our reflections, oftentimes the person feels seen and validated while at the same time not feeling like we're taking anybody's side. So I think that's such a big piece, but that sense of self oftentimes is so thrown off because maybe the person grew up feeling like they couldn't trust their own perceptions. So they have a hard time going back to that sense of self to check out, “am I doing the right thing? Am I not? Does it make sense why I'm so upset or what's going on? So you're really strengthening that sense of self it sounds like and developing that for helping them develop that.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (33:34)
Yes, absolutely. I think it's such a good point. And you know, in our research and also in our clinical work, we often use Briers's trauma symptom inventory. He has a very apt scale that tunes into what you're describing. The scale is entitled Other Directedness and it reminds me of a couple, I'm not sure the tape that you've been watching, but one of the couples that we worked with and we did a series of sessions and taped them, and they have been so generous with their work. At the beginning of therapy, she would say - for example, I'd ask him a question and he would often defer to her. When we've had a history of trauma, we don't trust ourselves and we look to others for guidance and direction and while that might be nice in some ways, when we wanna choose what carpet we have living room, oftentimes the partners in those relationship will describe some version of feeling alone. I don't want you to agree with me. I don't need you to you know, do it my way. I need a partner, I want a partner. I want you
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (35:06)
A human who has thoughts, opinions, preferences and so on. Just kinda an emptiness that goes along with everything else.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (35:14)
Exactly. But the person who has had a history of trauma they don't - I feel like at the beginning in those sessions, we're like a translator. I get it. I hear you. “When she reaches to you in this way, you don't hear her say, I want you, I need you, I long for you. You are scrambling to figure out what she wants and what she needs and what you're supposed to do.” And so then we would help that person slow down. We would use our voices and our presence and our safe haven alliance and like you said earlier, reflections, to really help that person to slow down and tune in to self, tune into their own inner experience in a way that would allow them to then find aspects of themselves that they don't normally tune into. And as importantly share that with the other. That begins to shift that bond. And in so doing, we also are beginning to heal trauma.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (36:24)
It was occurring to me too, for folks that maybe not be as familiar with EFT we're not going into a lot of the past, or we're not going into - “Oh, because of the relationship with your parent. That's why you're feeling this or something right now.” And that really staying with the present experience. The person. sometimes they might bring in, “it feels like this with my parent or something” and you know, oftentimes we talk about the raw spots that come up. But we are in that present moment of how whatever happened affected them and the emotions that come up in that moment. I've had couples where sometimes they've been through lots of different therapy where it's very much focused on the past. And like one couple I was working with and the husband was sharing his pain and, the heterosexual couple that the woman said, I feel so bad. And I said, say more about that. He said, I just feel so bad that his mother screwed him and was so traumatizing to him. And he was hurt because she had slammed down the phone on him and hung up on him. And so we explored that a little bit because that would be her fault anyway, even if he hadn't had that trauma. And part of it for her was the shame and not wanting to feel that shame and feeling bad that she had caused him pain. So focusing on the external things that have happened to him rather than the effect that she had. And of course, when she was able to share that, he was able to also turn towards her and to really show that she is lovable and he really wants to be with her. That's why it gets hurt. But sometimes that can get a little, little mixed in there if it goes too all the past focus and explaining everything.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (38:05)
That's beautiful. And I think that oftentimes when we're able to reflect in a way that allows people to see that this experience in the relationship has a history that predates the relationship and that there's layers to this then oftentimes people can begin to see themselves and their partners a little differently and with a little more grace.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (38:41)
Definitely. And like that other couple you were saying, maybe not taking it as personally
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (38:47)
Exactly. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (38:48)
Like it's not about a rejection of him. That there's a trigger that's happening.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (38:53)
Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (38:54)
Great. So, you brought up earlier an experiencing scale and you were talking about the numbers. Can you tell me what that is or what you were referring to?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (39:07)
Sure. Well, in all of the research in EFT for couples we use the experiencing scale. And it's a scale that is seven levels. And so oftentimes, and especially when working with trauma and when people are sharing their stories for the first time, they'll be at a level of say, 1 to 3, which is really just talking about their experience. And sometimes they'll say, I feel like I'm talking about a movie that I was in, but I'm not in it. It's. It's that removed. And again, from an EFT point of view, we would say that makes perfect sense. That makes exquisite sense. That of course, that's how you talk about this. That's what helps you to survive and tolerate those intolerable circumstances. And then as we join with our client and help them to move into some of this frightening alien and unacceptable emotion, they're able to move into deeper levels of experience. And we know from the research studies that in stage two, especially in EFT, we wanna take our clients into this absorbed state where they're not talking about the experience, but they're in the experience much like I was describing with Sandy from the book, from the EFIT primer in that scene.There's a state of flow. When our clients, and especially when our clients are resourced both with a therapist, potentially an older wiser self, could be a spiritual figure, it could be a partner, a current partner that's not in the therapy context, but can be brought in. People can let go of some of these protective strategies that they relied on and really tune into themselves and let the experience take hold as Genilin others would describe.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (41:18)
It's like it's when you're heightening the emotions and really getting 'em connected to that and the vulnerability and particularly like you're saying: In stage two when both partners are engaged and they're shifting out of their cycle. And I know that as I was learning EFT, I would be trying to get the client really deep and so on, and then turn and take that leap to their partner, but sometimes it wasn't going so well. And then I realized that doing that Step five where they were accessing and getting more vulnerable, then turning to their partner, and when they got that Step six of the acceptance, then they would go deeper. And they would go more into that emotion and then turning and more acceptance, seeing that their partner was there and that, that they could feel safer and go deeper and deeper into heightening that emotion. And then really turning with that Step seven, where they're turning and asking for those needs to be met and taking that leap and having their partner catch them.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (42:19)
Exactly. I really love the way you're describing that. It's a dance. And as we attune with our clients, then that's right. Oftentimes it's not like this simple fluid process that is linear - not at all. It's a back-and-forth often. And the same is true in EFIT as well and again, it makes perfect sense that if our clients are moving into experiences that they normally don't occupy, that that can be difficult. Or receiving love for the first time can be difficult. And we would do some version of parts language where there's a part of you that can take that in, but there's another part of you that's scared. Can we just focus on the part of you that can take that in: what's happening inside of you now? And we rely on the body and the experience rather than the brain and the history because the gravity will always go toward the past and the past experience.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (43:24)
Definitely. And any other really important pieces that you think are important for our listeners to think about or know about when working with trauma and couples?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (43:37)
I really appreciated what you said earlier that no better place to heal trauma than in relationship. So in my work, although I'm very comfortable and love doing individual therapy, if I can bring a resource into the room, I will do so. Absolutely when we can work with couples in the context of trauma, we can do such beautiful work and really shift history and shift the partnership and shift the individuals within that partnership. So it's absolutely amazing.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (44:28)
Definitely. There was one couple that I talk about when I do some trainings for EFT where the person came in. The woman came in with panic attacks, we did CBT, we did exposure, but there was still some bottom-up stuff which was related to trauma and attachment trauma did some EMDR around that. But as we were talking about her and her husband, I realized this is basically being reinforced within their cycle. She would be scared to have needs, feel like the person's not gonna be there for 'em. She would try to express those needs. They would come out in critical ways and so on. And her husband would go away. So we went into the couple's therapy because I really knew that that was what was gonna heal the attachment trauma and really in this much more lasting way. I could do it between like, as in a dynamic way. And we could have a great attachment, but I really wanted to strengthen their attachment and it came up right. And it wasn't an intellectual thing. It was actually happening in the room in the moment experientially like you're saying. So I think that's just so important for that couple's work to really create that shift.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (45:36)
Yes. Amazing. Sounds beautiful. And it's so touching even to hear as you share. It’s so moving to be able to work with our clients in these ways.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (45:48)
Definitely. Well, thank you so much for coming. This is really great. And what stuff are you working on now or what's up and coming?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (45:57)
Well, lots of training and of course we have a pretty extensive library. And growing library through Petsi. And working on some writing. And a workbook and a book on trauma.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (46:21)
And did you all just publish the EFIT book recently, or you were mentioning that, what's the title of that one?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (46:29)
It's called A Primer for Emotionally Focused Therapy, EFIT Cultivating Fitness and Growth in Every Client.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (46:38)
Great. Wonderful. Well, we'll put some links on the website of the books and also you know, at the International Center for EFT, there are some videos that, that people can get at training videos and so on. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. I really appreciate, This was great.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (46:57)
Thank you. And thank you for sharing your beautiful work as well. It's really love to be with you. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (47:04)
Thanks. Take care. Bye-bye.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (47:06)
You too. Bye.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (47:07)
Thank you for joining us. If you're wanting to use this podcast, earn continuing education credits, please go to our website at therapy on the cutting edge.com. Our podcast is brought to you by the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, providing in-person and remote therapy in the San Francisco Bay Area. IEP provides training for licensed clinicians through our in-person and online programs, as well as our treatment for children, adolescents, families, couples, and individual adults. For more information, go to S F I A p.com or call 4 1 5 6 1 7 5 9 3 2. Also, we really appreciate feedback and if you have something you're interested in, something that's on the cutting edge of the field of therapy and think clinicians should know about it, send us an email or call us. We're always looking for the advancements in the field of psychotherapy to help in creating lasting changes for our clients.
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advancements in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. In today's episode, I speak with Leanne Campbell, who's an international speaker, writer and trainer and co-developer of emotionally focused couples therapy related to educational programs and materials. Most recently, she co-authored the basic EFIT Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy Text with Dr. Sue Johnson, named a primer for Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy, cultivating fitness and growth in every client, as well as writing a workbook for therapists who are training in EFT. Leanne is known for her expertise in the areas of loss and trauma, and has provided hundreds of psychological assessment reports for forensic legal and personal injury matters being considered before various levels of court, as well as insurance companies and bodies involved in adjudicating personal injury and other loss and trauma-based claims. In addition to maintaining a full-time private practice providing individual couple and family therapy and assessment services, Leanne currently co-manages a multi-site practice compromised of 25 clinicians and a site coordinator for an emotionally focused individual therapy outcome study. You can learn more about Leanne's [email protected]. Now let's listen to the interview. Well, hi Leanne. Thanks for joining us today.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (01:56)
Thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (01:59)
Great. So I know of your work. I was doing some reaching out for some consultation for folks that have expertise in EFT, emotionally focused couples therapy, as well as trauma and complex PTSD. And so you were great to give me some consultation and I've been watching a video of you working with a couple where there's trauma. While we were talking, I also got to learn a little bit more about the work you're doing with E-FIT, the emotionally focused individual therapy, which I've been hearing a lot about. And I know a lot of folks are starting to get trained out here. And so I wanna hear about all these different things, but first I wanna hear about how you got to doing what you're doing. I'm always interested in folks’ evolution of their thinking.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (02:43)
Okay, Sure. Thank you. Well, I had the good fortune of being in a fabulous clinical psychology program as a graduate student, where we were exposed to all kinds of leaders in the field. Some individuals who focused on gestalt therapy, others more psychodynamic, others, traditional cognitive behavioral therapy. And the well-known and well-respected Dr. Susan Johnson had just arrived on the scene at the University of Ottawa and was beginning her career as an academic and following up on some of the early studies that she did on the west coast of Canada. So I was a therapist along with some of my colleagues and some of those early studies looking at the empirical efficacy of emotionally focused therapy. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (03:38)
Wonderful. Very neat.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (03:43)
And then once I left graduate school, I moved to the west coast of Canada where I worked both in academia and also in private practice, and have focused my entire career basically on working in the areas of trauma and grief and loss.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (04:05)
Okay, great. How'd you get into those focuses?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (04:10)
Well partly demand in the community and partly passion and interest. in graduate school, we had the good fortune of working with a variety of people with all kinds of presenting difficulties. And I always gravitated toward working with trauma and especially complex developmental trauma and had a lot of great support. And in fact, I'm mostly focused individual therapy, which is now being talked about a lot more than it was in years. It's actually always been a part of the model. So I've been using EFIT for years, and it was only in 2019 that Sue wrote attachment theory and practice that I think it became more known as a part of the model. And then we wrote the primer in 2022. Well, it was published in 2022.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (05:10)
Oh, wonderful. And you have a clinic or a center, is that right?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (05:14)
Yes, we have a center that's focused on EFT and EFT trainings and the development of educational materials. And we also have a private practice Campbell Psychology Group comprised it’s a three site practice. Three offices on Vancouver Island. And in fact, Sue works in one of them now. Oh,
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (05:38)
Great.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (05:39)
Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (05:39)
Wonderful. Perfect. Okay, great. For those that don't know a lot about EFT: Can you talk about what EFT is? And I'd even be interested in your perspective on EFIT to EFT cause I don't think I've really heard that story so much. I mean, I knew that Sue was working with Les Greenberg. I know I've read all her books and talking about her putting the pieces together of Bulby's work and so on.But I don't quite know much about the individual therapy and how that melded into the couples and now back into some of the individual stuff. I don't know if I speak to that.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (06:17)
Sure, of course. Well, EFT you know, we would describe it as an attachment-based humanistic experiential therapy and it's relational, whether we're working with individuals, couples, or families. So many of the studies that were done in earlier years, of course, were focused on couple therapy but indeed when we work with couples, we also change the individuals within that partnership. So in fact, we use the same interventions, we focus on the same model of growth and assumption that our clients have an innate capacity to grow and thrive and are able to do so in their most important relationships. And sometimes what we need to do is dissolve any blocks or barriers to that growth or to the secure connection with their key others.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (07:18)
Okay, great. And the way I think about attachment work and EFT is that to the extent that we can turn to our partner and they'll be responsive to us, whether talk about our bad day or that thing they said that upset us or sex or money or the kids. And also to the extent that we feel loved, accepted, respected, when those two pieces are there, things are going well and we've got that secure attachment. But when they're not, we get into these cycles where each person's usually trying to do the thing to either gain closeness or prevent distance, but sometimes it's the opposite of what the other person needs. So they end up moving farther apart. And so we're really trying to help shift that and really help them to reconnect and really be able to see that attachment drive and need that's actually their belonging to be with each other, although getting into these patterns where they're feeling rejected or hurt or alone
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (08:12)
Exactly. Yes. Lovely.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (08:16)
Great. The EFIT model, did that predate Sue's EFT, or is Les Greenberg's emotionally focused therapy and EFIT similar, or different?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (08:34)
Oh, good question. Yes. I think for sure people would identify similarities, but I think a key difference is that EFIT is very much attachment-focused. And another key difference is that, for example, in EFT, across modalities, whether we're working with individuals, couples, and families, we talk about the tango, which I think you are familiar with.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (09:07)
Sure yep of course.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (09:07)
And just for listeners who may not be, I'll just describe it briefly. So Move 1 is tuning into present-process, and you described it beautifully talking about that in the context of couple therapy. What is the cycle that they get caught in. A common cycle is the pursue-withdrawal cycle that we all know about and are familiar with, and we put up a mirror for our clients. And as we put up a mirror for our clients, whether we're working with couples, individuals, or families not only do they feel seen and heard, and understood, but they also begin to see themselves In new ways. And so that's part of it. And then we help people order their emotion in Move 2 or we talk about affect-assembly and then we go into deepening. So again, emotion-focused therapy. We assume that emotion is the key agent and target of change, and in couple therapy, we set up these encounters between the partners to create corrective emotional experiences and strengthen their bond toward a stronger felt sense of security with themselves and others. And in EFIT, all the moves are the same. So in this Move 3 of the tango, the encounter might be with the therapist: What is it like for you to share your story for the first time? What is it like to talk about this? And we focus on present process. Or the encounter might be with a spiritual figure, or it could be with the attachment figure, even someone who's deceased potentially.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (11:02)
Like an empty chair or like an imagining thing.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (11:06)
Good question. So one of the ways that it's different than, perhaps what someone might do who's trained in EFIT by Greenberg and his colleagues, is we wouldn't use empty chair, but instead it's more imaginable as you suggested.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (11:26)
Like they’re imagine talking to that person and then kinda imagining the response?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (11:30)
Exactly. So it's very much parallels couple therapy, that as you tune into yourself and as we take our clients into their experience, it's there that we then engage the encounter and have them share with the other.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (11:52)
Okay.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (11:53)
And then in Move 4, of course, we see how that landed. What was that like to share? Did that younger part of you, for example, take it in that little girl who was alone and vulnerable and hid under the bed? And then in Move five, we celebrate that and we track and reflect and highlight what the client was able to do to move into what Bovie would describe as frightening alien and unacceptable emotion. And then come through the other side of that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (12:24)
Oh, interesting. Very cool. With that tango, that idea of like slowing the down the process, like: what's happening for you right now? And then going deeper into having them really sit with that experience and communicate it, and particularly in EFT. We're dropping into those primary emotions and connecting with the vulnerabilities, and then that enactment to turn to the other. And then having that different experience of hopefully them being there for them when they're turning, especially in stage 2 in re bonding work. And then reviewing that process and processing what it was like to share or see that reaction from their partner turning towards them or whatever it might be. And then, tying the bow, putting it all together and zooming back out again of the process. So that's nice. So in EFIT you're doing that similar process, but like using the enactment between the therapist and the client, or the client and an imaginal younger self or a parent figure or somebody who's passed away or something like that. And same thing, you're processing what it's like to say that, I imagine, what do you notice that the reaction is from the other and so on?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (13:38)
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (13:39)
Neat. Okay. Very cool. I love that. it reminds me of internal family systems where you're having that conversation with those parts or also sometimes we do that in EMDR. Also I do EMDR where we're sometimes having them imagine going in and caring for their younger self or bringing in a figure or so on. So I like that added level of actually processing that through that EFT deepening. Very cool. Nice. Okay. Great. So tell me a bit about working with couples with trauma and some of the things that you notice find that's helpful or find that's different. I mean, for a lot of my clients, you know I will sometimes go from individual therapy to then couples therapy, because oftentimes we've done a lot of work individually, but oftentimes when we've put the person back in their couple that triggers a lot of the attachment difficulties and really strengthening that attachment. Or sometimes I might even do couples to individuals or things like that. But I'm always interested in people's thinking about working with their clients with trauma and really the relationship is such a healing place to help clients heal their trauma.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (15:07)
Absolutely. Yes. So I think we work in present-process, of course, and with the assumption that the past comes alive in the present. So maybe I could just walk us through an example with a couple. So the first thing we do is bring the clients in together and we tune into people's stories. And we want to join with our clients and create what we would describe as a safe haven alliance with both of the partners and hear about what brought them together, how they met, what attracted them to each other. And then of course, we also wanna understand about their stories, the stories that they bring to their current relationship. And one of the things that we know about trauma is that people often talk about having been alone in the world. It depends on the type of trauma. Sure. Uh, of course, I work a lot with first responders and veterans and military as well as people with complex developmental trauma. So if we just focus on developmental trauma from a moment, we assume that our sense of who we are is constructed and evolves in our most important relationships. So when our clients have had experiences of enduring trauma early on, of course that's going to impact the way that they view themselves, the way that they move in the world relationally, and the way that they manage their emotions. And we know from years and years of couple therapy research, but also attachment science, that there's a finite number of ways that people manage intolerable circumstances. They either tend to shut down and act out or reactively intensify their emotions, or some combination of both. And a lot of the literature shows that it's this latter, some combination of both, that we could expect to see in the couple context if one or both partners have a history of trauma. So it's important for us - I think I shared about the care model in other contexts standing for a context attachment, the relationship, the therapeutic alliance, and emotion. So it's really important for us to understand the context in which our couples live and have lived, including potentially the intergenerational context, even. And so a common pattern might be, for example - actually a case that comes to mind for me is - I was working with a beautiful couple, and this is just a brief example, and he would talk about her disappearing on him.And again, when we work with present process, we can bring this alive in the room. And indeed, what he was referencing is that she would dissociate at times. And so I was able to tune into her experience, hold him while he you know, managed his own anxiety. About being alone in the relationship and not being able to reach her, not being able to impact her, which is a typical pursuer stance.As you know, and bring her home to him and to herself in the therapy space. And then we could actually talk about what happened. We could track and reflect and put up a mirror for what happened. And then he could begin to see that her dissociation or her numbing was not about him and about rejecting him. But when we reflected in context with all those layers of experience held up for them then, he can begin to pay attention and be with her in a new way. And she was able to share with him that, that all he would need to do in a moment like that is touch her leg. And we know from the brain scan studies that touch is healing. And from all the other studies that Jim Cohen and others have done. And they found a way to communicate around that. And so from an EFT point of view, we would think about that as an initial step toward healing some of the trauma that was imprisoning her, keeping her a working distance from herself, but also from someone who wanted to love her and was there to love her and wanted to be there for her and wanted to be, as you were describing, accessible, responsive, and engaged but didn’t know how.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (19:56)
Okay, that's great. So she was dissociating and then he would get anxious or feel like it was personal or feeling rejected, and then he would typically then pursue or try to reach out or get through to her or so on. and you're saying that you were reflecting that, helping him sit with that anxiety rather than pursuing at that moment and then grounding her, and then her talking about what just happened in her experience and him witnessing that and seeing that and seeing that it wasn't necessarily just because she didn't want to be with him. And then actually having that moment where she was able to, to maybe talk about what she needed and him with the hand on her and grounding and him maybe feeling less helpless or feeling more connected or more like a resource or than hopefully her feeling less alone.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (20:49)
Exactly. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (20:51)
Great. That, that's great. Yeah.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (20:55)
Oh, sorry, go
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (20:55)
. No, no, go for it.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (20:57)
Well, one of the things that we have to talk about is our protection becomes our prism. So of course for some of our clients who have relied on numbing or shutting down or some version thereof while that saved them and protected them and allowed them to tolerate the intolerable as young children or whatever the case may be it keeps them away from themselves and their capacity to tune into their needs, their longings, their vulnerabilities, and prevents them from sharing that with others in a way that allows them to have their needs met and to not be alone in their vulnerability. So in EFT, we pay close attention to the way that our clients move in the world emotionally and relationally and help them to move toward a felt sense of security with themselves and others that allows them to continue to grow and thrive in their relationships.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (22:05)
Oh, great. And I was wondering about this too because I was at a training with Dick Schwartz and IFS, and we were talking about in EFT you’re turning to your partner to get that attachment and soothing and in, he was conceptualizing IFS that your adult self is soothing that younger self and being your own attachment figure. And I'm wondering if there's any if that plays out in EFIT at all. Of the person developing that ability to be almost their own attachment figure, it sounds like, in those imaginal ones. But I was wondering, any thoughts on that?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (22:43)
Yes. I could walk you through an example. So one of the individuals that we write about in the book, Sandy, had a history of trauma multiple incidents at different ages and stages, and in an initial encounter with her younger self, that younger self rejected her and was unwilling to make contact. So in EFIT, much like in couple therapy, we talk about moving our clients toward a more coherent, competent, integrated self. A sense of self that can tune in to one cell and then use that internal compass to connect with others. So initially that, that was very hard for her. And so again, as an EFIT therapist, we join with our clients. I get the details of the bedroom that this little girl is in, how old is she? What does she look like? And then we rely on attachment science and everything we know about attachment, and we talk about following and leading. And in this case, I might say something like “As you see that little girl and she's turned away from you and she's not trusting, what are you drawn to do?” And older Sandy says, “I'll just sit with her. I'll just sit with her and I'll wait for her.” Which is brilliant from an attachment point of view and so as we proceed in the sessions that sense of trust begins to build. And in stage two we talk about moving into core defining dilemmas, core pivotal experiences that have shaped model of self and other, So in the case of trauma, we talk about potentially using a traumatic scene or incident to prime emotion. And we rely on that emotion to move our clients in new ways to provide some solution to the vulnerability that had no solution. When a child is helpless, of course, and alone and confused and doesn't understand what's happening. And so in this stage two session, and again, it's a humanistic experiential therapy, so we know that our client's windows of capacity can expand in Stage one. We know that integration shifts, there's more flexibility in model of self and other in stage one. And our clients have encountered frightening alien and unacceptable emotion. It's all become more manageable. So in Stage two just as is the case in couple therapy, we can move our clients into deeper levels of experience today and hold them for longer periods. And from an experiential point of view, and Ann Gennilen talks a lot about this in his book on focusing, we know that the experience will take hold and our clients can move into an absorbed state.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (26:22)
So now what happens in this stage two session with Sandy is that she goes into a scene where she was abused as a little girl and we dim the lights on the perpetrator to manage the threat. That's part of what we do and we illuminate and make brighter this contact between an older, wiser self, older Sandy, and this other young helpless little girl. And again, we rely on attachment science and the stronghold that experience now has as she moves into deeper levels of experiencing levels 4, 5, 6, or seven on the experiencing scale. And older, Sandy takes the little girl, the younger self, out of that scene, takes her out and then walk down a dusty road, arm and arm and they're together. And then we again, we talk about taking clients to their leading edge and as they create distance from the perpetrator and from that scene and are back on the warm steps of their home down the road, then she's able to move into some of the nausea and deep feelings that were intolerable to feel at the time of the event. So that's what we think about in terms of clients getting stuck. It's not being able to feel.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (28:08)
Like processing those emotions.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (28:09)
Exactly. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (28:10)
So they get stuck and the emotional flashbacks happen.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (28:14)
Exactly. So, so now she's not alone and she's able to feel deeply and completely some of what she would've not had any safety or capacity to feel. As a nine-year-old of course. and so we talk about moving our clients into emotion and through emotion. To create these corrective emotional experiences or emotional epiphanies. And part of what happens in that scene as well which is common in trauma, is that she's able to tell that little girl, it's not your fault. There's nothing you could have done. It could never be your fault. And in EFT, as you know we would have her repeat that because in stage two we talk about restructuring self and system. So I ask older “Tell her again, Say it again. It's not your fault.” And there too, we begin to see the shame dissolving and the sense of who she is shifting.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (29:21)
Great. Oh, that's wonderful. And the emotion that she's feeling in that moment while sitting on that warm step is almost like she's like processing the loss or like the aftermath of that experience?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (29:45)
Well, I really love your question because I think loss is really definitely an important part of work in trauma. In that moment, what she did was revisit again the scene, but from that vantage point and then she felt again, another layer, another wave of the horrific feeling that she had not yet been able to process. I love your question about grief and loss. That's right. That is on the other side of working through trauma, is then to grieve what wasn't. And we see this in couple therapy all the time, probably the tapes you're watching I think, that when couples come together and feel the beauty of secure connection, then so too, of course, does it put them in touch with everything that wasn't. And the same is true in EFIT, is that when our clients can begin to feel what's possible, it also puts them in touch with what wasn't.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (30:56)
That's great. It was making me think of Pete Walker's work on complex PTSD and really talking about the mourning that. Kinda a necessary process of mourning and being sad for that younger child and for yourself and about what you didn't have. And that oftentimes clients will not wanna go there and not wanna have pity on themselves or so on. But really being able to just honor what that younger self had gone through and being able to feel those feelings and let that move through. Well, that's wonderful. I love it. So with the trauma work with couples, that's part of what you're saying too as they start feeling that secure relationship,there's even that morning of not having had it, because it's so incredible to have had this at this time. When you're talking about the context and that sense of self you know, it made me think about something I talk about with some of the couples I work with, where there is CPTDS that there's you know, growing up in that invalidating environment, like the parent hitting the child, and then five minutes later, later saying, Well, why are you crying? And the kids don't know what's real or not, they're like, Wait a second. Their sense of self that they were hurt and crying now becomes put into question by the parent. And with the couples that I work with, I oftentimes find out for any couple, if they're feeling invalidated, that's painful and hurtful. But especially when I've got a client with trauma, oftentimes there can be a significant reaction of not feeling seen or feeling invalidated and so important in the couple's relationship for the person to be seen or be validated by their partner. And I think what's really nice about EFT is in our reflections, oftentimes the person feels seen and validated while at the same time not feeling like we're taking anybody's side. So I think that's such a big piece, but that sense of self oftentimes is so thrown off because maybe the person grew up feeling like they couldn't trust their own perceptions. So they have a hard time going back to that sense of self to check out, “am I doing the right thing? Am I not? Does it make sense why I'm so upset or what's going on? So you're really strengthening that sense of self it sounds like and developing that for helping them develop that.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (33:34)
Yes, absolutely. I think it's such a good point. And you know, in our research and also in our clinical work, we often use Briers's trauma symptom inventory. He has a very apt scale that tunes into what you're describing. The scale is entitled Other Directedness and it reminds me of a couple, I'm not sure the tape that you've been watching, but one of the couples that we worked with and we did a series of sessions and taped them, and they have been so generous with their work. At the beginning of therapy, she would say - for example, I'd ask him a question and he would often defer to her. When we've had a history of trauma, we don't trust ourselves and we look to others for guidance and direction and while that might be nice in some ways, when we wanna choose what carpet we have living room, oftentimes the partners in those relationship will describe some version of feeling alone. I don't want you to agree with me. I don't need you to you know, do it my way. I need a partner, I want a partner. I want you
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (35:06)
A human who has thoughts, opinions, preferences and so on. Just kinda an emptiness that goes along with everything else.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (35:14)
Exactly. But the person who has had a history of trauma they don't - I feel like at the beginning in those sessions, we're like a translator. I get it. I hear you. “When she reaches to you in this way, you don't hear her say, I want you, I need you, I long for you. You are scrambling to figure out what she wants and what she needs and what you're supposed to do.” And so then we would help that person slow down. We would use our voices and our presence and our safe haven alliance and like you said earlier, reflections, to really help that person to slow down and tune in to self, tune into their own inner experience in a way that would allow them to then find aspects of themselves that they don't normally tune into. And as importantly share that with the other. That begins to shift that bond. And in so doing, we also are beginning to heal trauma.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (36:24)
It was occurring to me too, for folks that maybe not be as familiar with EFT we're not going into a lot of the past, or we're not going into - “Oh, because of the relationship with your parent. That's why you're feeling this or something right now.” And that really staying with the present experience. The person. sometimes they might bring in, “it feels like this with my parent or something” and you know, oftentimes we talk about the raw spots that come up. But we are in that present moment of how whatever happened affected them and the emotions that come up in that moment. I've had couples where sometimes they've been through lots of different therapy where it's very much focused on the past. And like one couple I was working with and the husband was sharing his pain and, the heterosexual couple that the woman said, I feel so bad. And I said, say more about that. He said, I just feel so bad that his mother screwed him and was so traumatizing to him. And he was hurt because she had slammed down the phone on him and hung up on him. And so we explored that a little bit because that would be her fault anyway, even if he hadn't had that trauma. And part of it for her was the shame and not wanting to feel that shame and feeling bad that she had caused him pain. So focusing on the external things that have happened to him rather than the effect that she had. And of course, when she was able to share that, he was able to also turn towards her and to really show that she is lovable and he really wants to be with her. That's why it gets hurt. But sometimes that can get a little, little mixed in there if it goes too all the past focus and explaining everything.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (38:05)
That's beautiful. And I think that oftentimes when we're able to reflect in a way that allows people to see that this experience in the relationship has a history that predates the relationship and that there's layers to this then oftentimes people can begin to see themselves and their partners a little differently and with a little more grace.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (38:41)
Definitely. And like that other couple you were saying, maybe not taking it as personally
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (38:47)
Exactly. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (38:48)
Like it's not about a rejection of him. That there's a trigger that's happening.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (38:53)
Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (38:54)
Great. So, you brought up earlier an experiencing scale and you were talking about the numbers. Can you tell me what that is or what you were referring to?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (39:07)
Sure. Well, in all of the research in EFT for couples we use the experiencing scale. And it's a scale that is seven levels. And so oftentimes, and especially when working with trauma and when people are sharing their stories for the first time, they'll be at a level of say, 1 to 3, which is really just talking about their experience. And sometimes they'll say, I feel like I'm talking about a movie that I was in, but I'm not in it. It's. It's that removed. And again, from an EFT point of view, we would say that makes perfect sense. That makes exquisite sense. That of course, that's how you talk about this. That's what helps you to survive and tolerate those intolerable circumstances. And then as we join with our client and help them to move into some of this frightening alien and unacceptable emotion, they're able to move into deeper levels of experience. And we know from the research studies that in stage two, especially in EFT, we wanna take our clients into this absorbed state where they're not talking about the experience, but they're in the experience much like I was describing with Sandy from the book, from the EFIT primer in that scene.There's a state of flow. When our clients, and especially when our clients are resourced both with a therapist, potentially an older wiser self, could be a spiritual figure, it could be a partner, a current partner that's not in the therapy context, but can be brought in. People can let go of some of these protective strategies that they relied on and really tune into themselves and let the experience take hold as Genilin others would describe.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (41:18)
It's like it's when you're heightening the emotions and really getting 'em connected to that and the vulnerability and particularly like you're saying: In stage two when both partners are engaged and they're shifting out of their cycle. And I know that as I was learning EFT, I would be trying to get the client really deep and so on, and then turn and take that leap to their partner, but sometimes it wasn't going so well. And then I realized that doing that Step five where they were accessing and getting more vulnerable, then turning to their partner, and when they got that Step six of the acceptance, then they would go deeper. And they would go more into that emotion and then turning and more acceptance, seeing that their partner was there and that, that they could feel safer and go deeper and deeper into heightening that emotion. And then really turning with that Step seven, where they're turning and asking for those needs to be met and taking that leap and having their partner catch them.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (42:19)
Exactly. I really love the way you're describing that. It's a dance. And as we attune with our clients, then that's right. Oftentimes it's not like this simple fluid process that is linear - not at all. It's a back-and-forth often. And the same is true in EFIT as well and again, it makes perfect sense that if our clients are moving into experiences that they normally don't occupy, that that can be difficult. Or receiving love for the first time can be difficult. And we would do some version of parts language where there's a part of you that can take that in, but there's another part of you that's scared. Can we just focus on the part of you that can take that in: what's happening inside of you now? And we rely on the body and the experience rather than the brain and the history because the gravity will always go toward the past and the past experience.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (43:24)
Definitely. And any other really important pieces that you think are important for our listeners to think about or know about when working with trauma and couples?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (43:37)
I really appreciated what you said earlier that no better place to heal trauma than in relationship. So in my work, although I'm very comfortable and love doing individual therapy, if I can bring a resource into the room, I will do so. Absolutely when we can work with couples in the context of trauma, we can do such beautiful work and really shift history and shift the partnership and shift the individuals within that partnership. So it's absolutely amazing.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (44:28)
Definitely. There was one couple that I talk about when I do some trainings for EFT where the person came in. The woman came in with panic attacks, we did CBT, we did exposure, but there was still some bottom-up stuff which was related to trauma and attachment trauma did some EMDR around that. But as we were talking about her and her husband, I realized this is basically being reinforced within their cycle. She would be scared to have needs, feel like the person's not gonna be there for 'em. She would try to express those needs. They would come out in critical ways and so on. And her husband would go away. So we went into the couple's therapy because I really knew that that was what was gonna heal the attachment trauma and really in this much more lasting way. I could do it between like, as in a dynamic way. And we could have a great attachment, but I really wanted to strengthen their attachment and it came up right. And it wasn't an intellectual thing. It was actually happening in the room in the moment experientially like you're saying. So I think that's just so important for that couple's work to really create that shift.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (45:36)
Yes. Amazing. Sounds beautiful. And it's so touching even to hear as you share. It’s so moving to be able to work with our clients in these ways.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (45:48)
Definitely. Well, thank you so much for coming. This is really great. And what stuff are you working on now or what's up and coming?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (45:57)
Well, lots of training and of course we have a pretty extensive library. And growing library through Petsi. And working on some writing. And a workbook and a book on trauma.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (46:21)
And did you all just publish the EFIT book recently, or you were mentioning that, what's the title of that one?
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (46:29)
It's called A Primer for Emotionally Focused Therapy, EFIT Cultivating Fitness and Growth in Every Client.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (46:38)
Great. Wonderful. Well, we'll put some links on the website of the books and also you know, at the International Center for EFT, there are some videos that, that people can get at training videos and so on. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. I really appreciate, This was great.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (46:57)
Thank you. And thank you for sharing your beautiful work as well. It's really love to be with you. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (47:04)
Thanks. Take care. Bye-bye.
T. Leanne Campbell, Ph.D: (47:06)
You too. Bye.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D: (47:07)
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