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Michelle Farris, LMFT - Guest
Michelle Farris, LMFT is a psychotherapist, codependency expert, and anger management specialist with a passion for helping people break free from codependent patterns and manage emotions with confidence. She’s been featured in several online publications and podcasts, known for her down-to-earth approach and deep expertise. Michelle empowers her clients to stop people-pleasing, trust themselves again, and build the healthy, connected relationships they’ve always wanted. Through her online courses and digital resources, she teaches practical tools for codependency recovery, emotional regulation, self-trust, and lasting relationship success. She teaches a 4 week class, Beyond Codependency, and has a website with free resources for therapists on codependency and anger. |
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W. Keith Sutton, Psy.D. - Host
Dr. Sutton has always had an interest in learning from multiple theoretical perspectives, and keeping up to date on innovations and integrations. He is interested in the development of ideas, and using research to show effectiveness in treatment and refine treatments. In 2009 he started the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, providing a one-way mirror training in family therapy with James Keim, LCSW. Next, he added a trainer and one-way mirror training in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and an additional trainer and mirror in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. The participants enjoyed analyzing cases, keeping each other up to date on research, and discussing what they were learning. This focus on integrating and evolving their approaches to helping children, adolescents, families, couples, and individuals lead to the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy's training program for therapists, and its group practice of like-minded clinicians who were dedicated to learning, innovating, and advancing the field of psychotherapy. Our podcast, Therapy on the Cutting Edge, is an extension of this wish to learn, integrate, stay up to date, and share this passion for the advancement of the field with other practitioners. |
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (00:24):
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including Family Systems, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, Motivational Interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma; and our center for ADHD and Oppositional & Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:31):
In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible. Today, I’ll be speaking with Michelle Ferris, who is a psychotherapist, codependency expert, and anger management specialist with a passion for helping people break free from codependent patterns and manage emotions with confidence. She’s been featured in several online publications and podcasts and is known for her down-to-earth approach and deep expertise. Michelle empowers her clients to stop people-pleasing, trust themselves again, and build the healthy, connected relationships they’ve always wanted. Through her online courses and digital resources, she teaches practical tools for codependency recovery, emotional regulation, self-trust, and lasting relationship success. She teaches a four-week class, Beyond Codependency.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (02:58):
She also has a website with free resources for therapists on codependency and anger. Let’s listen to the interview. Well, hi Michelle. Welcome. Thanks for joining.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (03:09):
Thanks so much, Keith, for having me. I’m excited.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:12):
Yeah, so I had sent some information about this podcast on some of our local listservs, and you had replied and mentioned that you do a lot of work around codependency and that you’ve been on different podcasts about this topic. I thought that would be really interesting to learn more about. So we set this up to do the interview. Before we even get into codependency work, I always love to hear how people got into doing what they’re doing—their thinking.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (03:41):
Yeah. Well, even as a little girl, I always knew my family was dysfunctional, and I wanted to figure it out—why this was happening. I always had an interest in that. When I was about 20, I had a girlfriend who was sober at 14, and I went to AA meetings with her. I thought it was the coolest thing ever, but I wasn’t an alcoholic, so I didn’t really think about it.Fast forward to my early twenties, I got into food addiction recovery and codependency recovery. That’s when I thought, I really do want to be a therapist, because it gave me principles for living that I didn’t get growing up. I always felt like, where’s the rule book for healthy living and healthy relationships? I certainly didn’t have it, because I was super codependent myself. That was honestly the motivation. Seeing how much hope recovery gave me, and the people I saw in recovery, really made me want to spread the word. Sometimes therapy gets a bad rap—that you have to do it for years and it’s hard work. And yes, that can be true, but there are also ways to get relief quickly with the right support. I’m a big advocate of that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (05:11):
Yeah. Wonderful. That’s great. Tell me a little bit about how you define codependency. I know sometimes when I bring it up with clients, people see it as a dirty word or as blaming, but it’s actually a very helpful concept for understanding what’s happening.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (05:30):
Yeah, it is. And there’s a continuum. You can have some of the symptoms or all of them. At the heart of codependent people is a huge heart—they want to give and contribute. How I define it is that it’s a relationship pattern of over-functioning in hopes of getting love, support, and validation that you can’t give to yourself. We’re usually the helpers, the givers, the people trying to fix and control things because we’re very outwardly focused on what other people are doing. That’s how we grew up staying safe. Most people with codependent tendencies grew up in families where they weren’t seen or heard, and adult problems overshadowed everything. They learned early to be quiet, be people pleasers, take care of others, and neglect themselves. That sets up a pattern of over-functioning in adulthood, leading to one-sided and toxic relationship patterns.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (06:43):
Yeah. I imagine there’s a lot of focus on the other person, especially if you grew up with parents who were unpredictable or reactive. You had to pay attention to keep them happy or calm things down.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (07:01):
Right. And that can become a gift. That hypervigilance means I can walk into a room and know who’s upset and who isn’t. The problem is that without recovery, we might assign negative meaning—thinking someone is mad at us because of a look, when they may just be having a feeling that has nothing to do with us. But that gift of reading the emotional temperature of the room is important to recognize.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (07:33):
Yeah. Being very attuned. And one piece is thinking someone is mad at me. The other piece is over-responsibility—feeling like I have to fix it or make sure they’re not mad anymore.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (07:50):
Exactly. And there’s usually a lot of anxiety around that. It’s funny, because early in my recovery, I didn’t relate to the word anxiety at all. I thought, no, I’m not anxious. Then I look back and think, oh my God, yes, I was, because I was constantly looking for ways to matter, and I couldn’t sit still in my own skin. That’s another aspect of codependency: we really don’t have a strong sense of self because we’re constantly looking to others for that. So we may be the chameleon. We may change who we are depending on who is sitting across from us. We may change our opinions. If somebody is a Republican, we may say, yes, we agree. If somebody is quiet, we’re going to match them by being quiet. Whatever that is, we’re really good at figuring it out. The problem is that we don’t know who we are in that process.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (08:44):
Definitely, yeah. In one sense, the self is very significantly affected. If they’re happy with me, I’m good. If they’re upset with me, I’m bad. And so, right, having that stable sense of self becomes really difficult. Now, can you talk about codependency and boundaries? Because I think there are differences and similarities, and it’s such an important topic. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (09:10):
Sure. Most people who struggle with codependency don’t set boundaries because it’s way too threatening to say no or to say, “I can only give this much.” Their whole mindset is, how can I please you so that I feel safe and loved? They don’t see boundaries as a healthy option. They see them as a very scary, potentially abusive option. If we grew up in a family where our needs and feelings were not honored, we’re not going to want to ask for what we want in adult relationships. We’re going to say, “Oh no, no, no—whatever you want.” Because if I say I disagree with you, you could hit me, you could tell me I’m stupid, you could tell me I’m too sensitive—and I won’t risk that. So that’s where we go.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (10:02):
That’s why I like defining boundaries as determining the actions you take—what you choose in or out of. If we make boundaries about the other person’s behavior, of course they can say no. Then we feel frustrated and powerless. But if I can choose in or out of a certain behavior that’s in front of me, then I feel empowered. That’s the confusion I like to educate clients about. Boundaries don’t have to be scary. Taking care of yourself might simply mean leaving the room because the discussion has become toxic. You don’t have to have a big, long discussion.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (10:46):
Exactly. I think that’s a really key misunderstanding for many people. They’ll say, “They’re not respecting my boundaries.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (10:55):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (10:55):
But that statement itself misses the point. When someone crosses a boundary, it’s about how you respond. We don’t have control over the other person or their side of the street. It’s about what we do on our side. Like you said, if someone keeps pushing, you can say, “If this continues, I’m going to leave the room,” and then follow through.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (11:24):
Right. And when people violate our boundaries, the gift is that we get important information about how safe and respectful that person really is. I take that information in, and I lower my expectations if someone can’t respect my boundaries. I’m not going to try to make them change. Instead, I might decide not to talk about vulnerable subjects with them because it’s not safe.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (11:58):
Yeah. You’re not putting yourself in that situation.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (12:03):
Right. Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (12:04):
So what do you think are the key aspects of codependency that are important for therapists to understand when helping clients?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (12:19):
The over-functioning pattern is huge. If a client is resentful, that’s a major clue. They’re likely giving more than they want to, but they don’t feel like they have a choice. They may not be communicating honestly, so they’re holding a lot of hurt that turns into resentment. They may want to control situations or outcomes because that’s the only way they feel safe. Often, a codependent client presents wanting to fix the relationship without realizing their part in it. This can show up in parent-child relationships, especially when a parent is overly enmeshed with an adult child and doesn’t understand why the child has pulled away. They may constantly text or call, saying, “How are you? Call me back. I texted you.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (13:19):
This is also very common in women’s friendships, where intimacy becomes so enmeshed that boundaries disappear. Then the relationship crashes and burns. Of course, it shows up in romantic relationships too. The common theme is, “I have to fix this relationship. What can I do?” And when they describe the relationship, it’s usually one-sided. They’re giving, the other person isn’t supportive, and that person may have narcissistic traits, addiction issues, or significant problems. That’s often who the codependent is drawn to. Unless they’re already in recovery, they’re not likely to say, “I’m codependent and I want help.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (14:29):
Many of my clients find me through my YouTube channel and already self-identify. But if they don’t, therapists really need to look for those one-sided relationship patterns. That helps guide where to go clinically. They want to fix their relationships, but I help them see that they have to start befriending themselves. Without a connection to self, they’ll continue over-functioning and seeking validation from others.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:11):
Yeah. It makes me think that when codependent clients want to fix the relationship, their solution is often, “I need to do more.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (15:21):
Yes. Absolutely. And the question is, is that working? Usually, when we do more, it gives the other person permission to do less. The pattern becomes, “They’ll always reach out, so I don’t have to.” The hardest part of codependency recovery is doing less. That’s the first step. For me, that meant not responding immediately, not sending a second text if I didn’t hear back, and getting busy with my own life. I had to stop hyper-focusing on other people because that focus led to pain, emptiness, and tying my value to relationships.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:13):
And often the belief is, “If I just do it right, they’ll treat me better, they’ll connect, they’ll respond.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (16:41):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:42):
Then realizing it’s not all dependent on you, and that doing less might actually be necessary. Focusing more on your own integrity.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (16:55):
Exactly. Therapists can really help here by asking, “What have you tried? Has it worked?” Clients need to see for themselves that they’re doing backflips and nothing is changing. We can tell them they’re doing too much, but it really lands when they realize, “I can’t keep this up. I’m anxious and overwhelmed all the time.” That insight helps them see how their codependency is preventing relationships from becoming healthy.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (17:34):
Definitely. You mentioned befriending yourself earlier. Can you talk more about that?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (17:43):
Sure. About seven years ago, I had a very close friend—another therapist. We were close for a couple of years, and then suddenly she ended the friendship. It devastated me. The grief was intense. I realized I had lost myself again. Even though I had boundaries and recovery, I had made her my higher power. That was the wake-up call. I still needed someone else to fill me up.That’s when I knew I had to learn to be with myself. I grieved, wrote, walked, and learned to sit still within myself—something I had avoided. We often don’t see our own value because we want healthy relationships so badly. But as cliché as it sounds, loving yourself really is necessary to love others.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (19:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Farris (19:11):
You know, I mean, if I can’t be comfortable in my own skin, how the heck am I going to navigate a relationship that could come and go or end at any moment? You know? Because there are no guarantees, whether there’s a marriage certificate or not. So that was a huge wake-up call for me. And that’s why I think befriending ourselves is a really big part of the process. But some people aren’t quite ready to do that work when they first come in.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (19:38):
Yeah. Well, I think it creates desperation too. Yes, right? If I lose this relationship, then—right—I’m alone. Right? Or it makes me think about the role of shame. You know, I imagine, right, yeah, as the sense of self is not really grounded or solid, and whether I’m good or bad depends on how this other person feels about me. Sometimes an underlying— I mean, a lot of this is mixed in with complex PTSD, of course. Yes. You know, and right, right. Pete Walker, in his book Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, talks about toxic shame. And I think it’s that shame—if I get other people to like me, then I’m good. But if they don’t like me, then it means, oh, that fear that I really am bad or no good. It’s actually true. And trying to kind of fill that emptiness or—yes—I think the “hungry ghost” that they talk about in addictions and so on.
Michelle Farris (20:46):
Oh, I haven’t heard that term.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:47):
Oh, yeah, yeah. I know exactly where that’s from. I heard it from Gabor Maté originally, but it’s from somewhere else—that there’s just this hungry emptiness that we’re trying to fill with addiction, with codependency.
Michelle Farris (21:00):
Oh, I love that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:02):
Yeah. But yeah, I think that shame or sense of self, and kind of getting that validation or feeling like, if I don’t have this, then who am I? And befriending oneself, and really—yeah—working through that shame to have that self-compassion.
Michelle Farris (21:21):
Yeah. I think shame is a huge part of codependency, because when we make a mistake, we feel like we are the mistake, and we can’t get over it. And that’s part of the work—to realize that everybody makes mistakes, but we have to kind of learn to accept that about ourselves. The other thing is, so much of this goes back to what we were told in childhood, where a lot of people who were codependent were told, “You’re being too sensitive,” or “You’re overreacting.” And it’s like, really, we were just having our feelings based on what was happening. But a lot of adults don’t know how to deal with kids’ feelings or teenagers’ feelings, so we make them wrong for it. And luckily, I think that’s starting to change with all the education we have now. So I think your point about shame is really important, because that’s what keeps us stuck. If I think inherently that I’m being too sensitive and it’s my fault, then I’m not going to want to do anything different, because I’m stuck in that shame and I’m not going to be able to get out.
Michelle Farris (22:27):
And that’s why I think 12-step programs are really key for that. Because if people can do Al-Anon or CODA, or She Recovers—which is another one that’s not specific to codependency, but it’s a women’s support group that’s so helpful—because in telling your story and sharing it at meetings over and over again, you are going to get that confidence and that sense of self to realize that, you know what, I wasn’t bad. I’m not a bad person. Everybody else is doing this stuff too. I’m not alone. I’m not defective. And I think that’s why I’m really a big proponent of additional support groups for codependency.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:10):
Well, and 12 Steps are great. I have a number of family members in 12-step groups and grew up as a kid going to them and so on. And oftentimes it’s a community, which is really nice. Yeah. Really, I think one of the biggest things is facing that shame—when people are telling their story and speaking to it—rather than running away from it or avoiding it. One way I’ve conceptualized this shame related to complex PTSD is that, oftentimes as a child, it’s hard to realize that it’s not really about you—it’s about the parent. And now there’s this feeling the kid has of, “If I just do it right, the parent will be happy with me.” So if I do it wrong, then shame—rather than, as an adult, the person realizes, no matter what I did, it wasn’t going to make things better with my parents because of their narcissism, their alcoholism, their abuse, or whatever it might be. I was just a kid. And so that shame oftentimes was a survival skill—to keep the person in shape to try to make it through that maze of that situation.
Michelle Farris (24:23):
Yeah. And you know, 18 years is a long time to have that experience. So that’s why we really have to be gentle with ourselves. Someone emailed me the other day asking about my codependency class, and they said, “Are you recovered?” And I was like, no, I don’t believe in that. I believe that I am recovering one day at a time, but this is not something that we’re going to achieve perfection over. And, “Oh, I’m done. I’m done being codependent. Thanks.”
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (24:51):
You’re in recovery—yes. Perpetually in recovery.
Michelle Farris (24:55):
Absolutely. But it was interesting, because there are some people that want to know, “Hey, can this end?” And I believe the big painful patterns can, but I see it as a process and not a destination, because that’s really, really hard to achieve with any psychological issue.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:14):
Yeah. We’re going to have our reflexes that have been ingrained over years and years, but we can respond to them differently rather than just reacting. So there’s a thought that kind of came to my head—I’d love to hear your thoughts on this—but sometimes the way I think about it with someone who’s codependent is helping them to be appropriately selfish.
Michelle Farris (25:35):
Oh, yes. Yes. I mean, that is such a dirty word for codependent people. And yet, it’s like, really, “selfish” means I count too. It doesn’t mean, okay, now I’m only going to focus on myself and I’m not going to give up at all. I mean, the goal in codependency recovery is to give without it hurting you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:57):
Yeah. Oh, I like that.
Michelle Farris (25:58):
You know, and sometimes what I’ll tell people is, if you’re asked for a favor, instead of saying no—because maybe you’re not ready to say no—maybe you do half of it. I could help you for two hours instead of four. You know, and that could be a win. Or you support them in figuring out a different option because you’re not available. That’s showing support. But realizing that we don’t always have to say one hundred percent yes and commit to something when, in our hearts, we’re saying, no, I don’t want to do that. You know, I need to give myself permission to just not do it. And that doesn’t mean anything bad about them. It just means you’re kind of done. And that’s actually a sign of health.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (26:43):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, oftentimes—yeah—I like that idea of valuing yourself that way rather than always self-sacrificing. Looking at what’s good for them, what’s good for me, and how do we kind of put this together to get a win-win, or be able to do that for them because it’s not going to take away too much from me. As we’re talking about this, I guess one of my thoughts is that oftentimes I think the biggest fear is that I’m going to lose the relationship.
Michelle Farris (27:14):
Yes. Yes. Well, and that’s why I always say, do baby steps first. Try expressing a difference of opinion. Practice saying, “You know what? I’d rather go to this place than this place today.” Because really, those are little mini tests to see how that relationship and that person are going to react. Because if they flip out when I say no, that’s a really good sign that they don’t need to be in my inner circle. Now, if they’re your spouse, then you have to practice a lot of detachment, and you need other forms of support if you decide to stay in that marriage. But yeah, I think that’s a really, really good point. When somebody violates our boundaries, or when we’re trying to practice new behavior, the people who love you are going to say, “Yes, take care of yourself. I don’t want you to run yourself ragged.” Those are the people we want to flourish and really nurture. But the people who make us feel bad or gaslight us over what we need—those are the people we really need to be more mindful of and step back and realize that we can’t keep putting our emotional eggs in that basket because it’s toxic.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (28:25):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think also, you know, when there are healthier boundaries, you’re okay with losing relationships.
Michelle Farris (28:36):
Yes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (28:37):
Right. And if this person doesn’t like it, then it’s like—right—unfortunately, it’s not going to work.
Michelle Farris (28:43):
And that’s where the befriending comes in, right? Yeah. Because if we don’t do that piece, we’re not going to let go. And that’s often what happens in codependent relationships—they won’t let go no matter what.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (28:55):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that idea too of, like, “Hey, okay, this isn’t going to work out. It’s okay.” It’s hard to do that if one doesn’t feel whole themselves. Right. And I think that, like you’re saying, that befriending—otherwise it goes to shame, and I can’t be with myself.
Michelle Farris (29:13):
Yeah. And sometimes the goal is just to try to spread those emotional eggs out. Like, if everyone gets twelve, right, how many are you putting in one person’s basket? Because we really don’t want twelve—or even ten—in your spouse. You don’t want that many. So maybe the goal is to start meeting new friends and seeing how that goes, and noticing what kind of person you show up as. Because that can also be a way to start to detach and not be so dependent on whatever person you’re hyper-dependent on.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (29:51):
Definitely. And I think you mentioned something earlier that I often associate with codependency—where you end and where I begin.
Michelle Farris (30:00):
Yes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:02):
And I think that’s a big piece that is sometimes hard for others—and even, I think, for us as therapists—to help our clients with. And they’re being “resistant.” Can you talk a little bit more about this idea of where you end and where I begin?
Michelle Farris (30:22):
Yeah. So Al-Anon has a saying about “stay in your hula hoop,” and I love that. Because our hula hoop is what we say, what we do, what we think. Literally, that’s it. Everything that the other person is contributing is on them. We don’t have any responsibility for what the other person is doing or saying. Now, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t going to impact us or trigger us—but that’s our work to do. That’s not the other person’s job to fix themselves, because that’s their choice. But I think being able to really separate, okay, where’s my reaction versus what’s happening—that’s the art. Like, I had a conflict with someone the other day, and I could see that they had an overreaction to something. But my reaction was big. Not with the person, but internally. I was like, whoa, I’m triggered here. And I knew what that trigger was—I’m not seen, I’m not heard. They flipped quickly into anger, but that was my work. I didn’t go back to that person and say, “You really made me scared,” because she didn’t. She just said what she said in the moment. I still had to address what she said, but those emotions I had to deal with separately—writing, making phone calls—so I could have that conversation without spilling all of that onto her, which wouldn’t have been appropriate.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:06):
Not putting that stuff on her, but looking at where the boundaries are—where your stuff is and where their stuff is, and how it might be interacting. I think about motivational interviewing as having a profound respect for others’ boundaries. As therapists, we can get into what they call the “righting reflex”—trying to get somebody on the right path, getting over-invested, and becoming frustrated that the client isn’t doing what we think they should be doing. Other than that, motivational interviewing is really about respect. This person may decide to do heroin for the rest of their life. Ultimately, it’s their choice. We’re trying to help them, of course, but if they decide, “I don’t want to change,” we have to let go. Where they begin, they have the right to their own choices and autonomy. Otherwise, we get into controlling behavior.
Michelle Farris (33:10):
Right. And I’d probably characterize that as the intermediate level of recovery. In the beginning, we’re so reactive, and we tend to take everything personally because our hearts are on our sleeve and we’re looking for love everywhere we go. So again, it comes back to being gentle with yourself. If that’s too big of a piece for you, don’t force it. And that’s our job as therapists—to help clients see that their codependency is actually hurting them, and then to give them alternatives. You can still give, but maybe you don’t give as much, so they can begin to understand what health looks like.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (33:53):
Yeah. And maybe this goes into another term that I often take away from, like, Al-Anon—loving detachment.
Michelle Farris (34:02):
Oh yes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (34:04):
Could you speak on that?
Michelle Farris (34:05):
Definitely. So for me, detaching is letting the other person handle their life, right? And we can actually—like, for instance, if someone is doing something annoying, right—the first thing we want to do is comment. And not that that’s wrong. You could say, “You know what? That behavior is kind of rubbing me the wrong way. I just need to let you know that.” But they have a choice to continue that behavior. So that’s where the detachment comes in. Where if somebody is drinking a lot, if somebody is yelling, I may go, “You know what? I don’t want to be around this. I am going to back up and not say anything.” But I’m essentially voting with my feet by letting them know that, you know what, I’m not going to participate in this because it’s not healthy for me. We don’t have to have a big, long conversation. We can just say, “You know what, I’m out.” Yeah. And often, even with a toxic person, that sometimes gets their attention because they realize, “Oh my gosh, every time I do this, they leave.”
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:08):
Yeah.
Michelle Farris (35:09):
And sometimes that will make that--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:11):
Kill behavior.
Michelle Farris (35:11):
That’s right. And sometimes that other person may do a little bit of self-correcting because they don’t want the person to leave, like yelling or name-calling. You know, I mean, some of these seem obvious, but if we are constantly backing up and practicing good detachment without making the other person wrong, then they get to choose, “Hey, what do I want to do right now?” And that can be a very empowering thing. And that’s why I love detachment, because it works in so many ways when somebody is doing something that we don’t like or agree with.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:45):
Yeah. Like somebody who’s maybe still having a relationship, say, with a parent or something that is maybe—yeah—narcissistic or whatever. And they might be like, “Okay, you know, if you yell, I’m going to hang up.” Right? I’m not going to try—yeah—you don’t yell. Right? That’s whatever you decide on that. But if you do, I’m hanging up, and then we can try again another time or so on. And then, yeah, sometimes through that process, the person does adjust because they don’t want to lose the relationship sometimes. Right? Sometimes they just can’t—if they just can’t get it.
Michelle Farris (36:19):
Well, yeah. And the codependent person tends to want to fix. Yeah. So it’s really hard for us to give up that, “Well, let me just help you out. Let me show you how to do it differently. You can stop yelling—just count to ten.” It’s like, no. But that’s what they have to learn: by trying to give the other person that unsolicited advice, it actually just makes it worse. And they need to learn that by repetition, like we all do.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (36:45):
Definitely. Yeah. And when I think of loving detachment, I oftentimes think of substance abuse, where a member is trying to help out another family member—a child. Mm, yes. But that idea of, like, “I can be detached from the outcome,” because this person may not get sober. They may die. They may be horrible as somebody that you love. We have to kind of detach from trying to make that outcome happen, while at the same time still loving and caring about the person and having boundaries around whatever the connection is. We can meet up for lunch. We’re not going to go to the house because they steal things or whatever it is. But we can still have a connection. I think sometimes people associate detachment with, like, just cutting off, or being cold, or not having any feelings toward a person. But I think it’s more detached from the outcome that the person wants—almost more of an Eastern philosophy.
Michelle Farris (37:49):
Absolutely. And you can say, “You know, this isn’t working for me. I need to hang up right now.” Yeah. I mean, you can put words to it, but sometimes it just depends how often they have to do it. And if somebody’s yelling, I probably wouldn’t. I would just excuse yourself and get out of the room, because we don’t want to do anything. But you bring up a really good point: a lot of times when there is toxic behavior, the codependent person really sees it as, “Well, are you telling me I have to leave?” They only see it as, “I either have to fix and get better, or I have to leave.” And it’s like, no—you can stay in the relationship and practice these skills, because that is going to help give you some serenity. I think they don’t realize there’s a middle step.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:34):
Yeah. It’s often black-and-white or dissociation, right? Which is also part and parcel of the complex PTSD type situation. That’s all-or-none. And sometimes I find people who are a little bit more on the passive side—when they finally try to be assertive—they dig in and become very resolute, not more collaborative or trying to understand and get something that works for everybody. It’s like, “I finally asked for what I need, and I’m going to dig in. I’ve got to fight for that,” rather than having healthy flexibility and being able to tolerate the discomfort of the discord while you figure out the path.
Michelle Farris (39:20):
Right. But that’s a really good point too, because often we’ll swing from not saying anything to now I’m going to demand that I get my needed meds. But that’s part of the process too, because we have to learn that the other extreme doesn’t work either. That’s part of the process—we’re not going to do it healthy or the right way the first time. But each time we practice, even if we don’t get the outcome we want, we’re going to learn a ton about the relationship, about us, and how we could do it differently next time. That’s why I always say, please be gentle with yourself when you’re in the process of recovery, or when you see your clients going through this, because there’s so much going on underneath the surface that they really don’t know how to do any better.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:09):
Yeah, definitely. Well, it also made me think of internal family systems, right? A younger part that is really long--
Michelle Farris, LMFT (40:18):
Absolutely.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:18):
Connection, and yeah, and validation that they maybe weren’t getting from their parents. Yeah.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (40:24):
The other thing I would really recommend therapists doing is suggesting Al-Anon or CoDA. Yeah. Because I know for me, when I do that, it usually does it in stages. Very rarely does somebody take me up on it the first time I present it. But I would keep mentioning it because often there are a lot of myths around, you know, that they’re religious cults, they’re brainwashing you. No, there’s no leader, there’s no religion you have to follow. You get to pick your definition of a higher power or not have one at all. But it’s like once my clients get that additional support, that’s when they start to get it, because it’s not just an hour a week. Because if we’re the only voice helping them, you know, what are they going to do the other six days?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:13):
Well--
Michelle Farris, LMFT (41:13):
It’s going to be--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:13):
Tough. And having a sponsor to be able to help. Yes, right. Because it absolutely identifies what’s happening. Yeah. That’s Step Four, I think, right? Or what’s the higher power one, which really--
Michelle Farris, LMFT (41:25):
Oh yeah, that’s Step Three. It really--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:26):
Trips people up. Yes. People get stuck on that, which is unfortunate because, yeah, there are so many good things in 12-Step. And going through that process and working the steps with a sponsor can really help.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (41:39):
Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:41):
Any books that you recommend, or any particular training or so on for therapists wanting to help support their clients and learn more about codependency?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (41:51):
Oh yeah. Well, Codependent No More is definitely the Bible. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:55):
Even the number one.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (41:56):
And I think she redid it in the last couple of years before she passed. And that’s just the be-all, end-all book. I absolutely love it. Like I said, I always recommend Al-Anon or CoDA. The other thing I would say, though, is that because some people will say, “Well, I went to a meeting and they were all crazy.” And it’s like, you know what? Try six. Exactly. Because every meeting is going to have a different flavor, and some are going to be healthier than others. So don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater and assume that they don’t work. I really want to give people hope that there’s a lot more support out there for free that can really help you. There’s also a group—I’m going to be doing my own class on Beyond Codependency coming up on October 8th, because I find that people really need to talk through their stories and feel like, “Okay, what do I do here?”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (42:56):
Because for me, codependency is like a tree with many branches. It goes everywhere, and it looks different for each person. So sometimes we really need that concentrated support to say, “Okay, what am I doing? What do I need to be focusing on? How can I really start to feel better?” Because yes, Al-Anon and CoDA will do that, but they’re not therapists, so they’re not going to direct the process. Versus if you can find a class like mine—or I’m sure there are others out there—that can give you that concentrated support so you can kind of save the time that it took me. Yeah. That’s part of the reason why I do this.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:37):
Sure, sure. To help people move along and progress a bit quicker through the process. Yeah. And is your group online?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (43:52):
Yeah, it is. But it’s psychoeducation, so I can work with people outside the state.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:56):
That’s great.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (43:57):
It’s definitely not a therapy group.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:59):
And Beyond Codependency—do people have to have already been working on codependency?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (44:05):
Nope.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:06):
They can be new?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (44:07):
Yeah. Because there’s also a video library of 12 videos they’ll have access to right away, so they can get their feet wet. And then the live classes are really for a little bit of teaching, but mostly support and connection.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:20):
Yeah, definitely. I did have one client who was involved with CoDA, and she was in a group that became very codependent with each other, with a lot of struggles, and ended up needing to move to another group. So I think that’s true. And the same with AA. Trying different meetings is often helpful to find--
Michelle Farris, LMFT (44:44):
Absolutely the right--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:45):
Fit. Yeah. Because they’re not all the same—not like Starbucks.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (44:50):
Boy, if only they could be.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:53):
Yeah.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (44:54):
But yeah, I think that’s really important. The other thing is, I do have a free resource for therapists to help them jumpstart how to work with codependent clients and how to work with anger. Because sometimes that’s also a big piece of the work—the codependent person does not want to admit to being angry, but they usually have a lot of resentment stored up that needs to be processed.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (45:18):
Yeah. Say more about that.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (45:20):
So because we say yes and we mean no, and we usually give more than the other person, we’re really good—unfortunately—at keeping score. It’s so uneven and so obviously uneven. Multiply that by six people you’re in relationship with, plus family members, and of course you’re going to hit your limit. What the codependent person typically does is not admit to those feelings, but they leak out—maybe as sarcasm, or ghosting someone, or not responding right away. Those feelings have to come out. And part of a healthy relationship is being able to have all your feelings, and anger is a really important one.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:04):
Yeah, definitely. It’s like the gaslighting car—it’s telling us something. If something’s off balance. There’s also a piece where people preemptively try to do something for someone without asking them and giving them the chance to say yes or no. I’ll sometimes say to clients, “It seems like you might not be respecting them enough to make their own decision, and you feel like you have to make it for them.” And that really strikes them—like, “Oh yeah, they actually have the ability to say no.” Often they assume the other person has a hard time saying no, or whatever it might be. But overextending like that is often where resentment comes from, rather than asking, “Do you want this?”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (47:18):
We jump in because we want to be the hero. We lead with, “Oh, I can see the problem—let me fix it,” hoping they’ll be excited. But when people don’t ask and we jump in, we often overstep without realizing it. That’s a really good point you’re making.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:36):
Yeah. And it can feel intrusive. One of the key takeaways is that most people with codependency aren’t coming in saying, “I have codependency.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (47:56):
Unless they're already in the process. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:57):
Unless they've kind of gotten there. Yep. But they’re oftentimes maybe going to be coming in about, like, how do I help fix this situation or this problem, or yeah, these other people are, you know, not responding in the way that they should be. Yes. And sometimes being able to start to notice that, that, that can be, you know, a sign that there might be some levels of codependency. Yeah.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (48:21):
For sure.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (48:22):
Well, this has been wonderful, and you’re doing great work. I think this is so important. I think boundaries—you know, everybody talks about boundaries, boundaries—but it’s oftentimes very confusing, and it’s not straightforward. And there’s a lot of nuance to human relationships and interactions. Absolutely. Trauma, you know, or growing up in a situation, boundaries don’t come naturally, and you--
Michelle Farris, LMFT (48:47):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (48:48):
—you figure that out with others, with your own family members, children, spouse, and such. So it’s great work. And then we’ll put a link to the group that you’re doing, because it sounds like a great resource for folks too. For folks, yeah, maybe to get some expert guidance in this kind of process, in addition to getting help from CoDA or other 12-Step programs. Great. Any last piece that you want to throw in that listeners can take away?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (49:19):
You know, just be gentle with yourself. You’re doing great if you’re in this process of recovery—as a therapist, as a regular person. This takes a lot of courage. So I really want them to know that just the fact that they’re putting their attention to this these days says a lot. Yeah. And we don’t want to always base our success on the results, because that doesn’t give us a full picture.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (49:48):
Yeah. I wonder if it is perfectionism mixed in a lot with the—oh, yes—which, for sure, right, goes back down to that toxic shame piece. Yeah. Even if the person is making progress and they slip, or they have a blind spot and they’re engaged in another kind of codependent situation, yeah—they have trouble with that compassion for themselves. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Take care. Thank you. Bye-bye.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (50:17):
Thank you for joining us today. If you'd like to receive continuing education credits for the podcast you just listened to, please go to therapyonthecuttingedge.com and click on the link for CE. Our podcast is brought to you by the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, where we provide trainings for therapists in evidence-based models through live and online workshops, on-demand workshops, consultation groups, and online one-way mirror trainings. To learn more about our trainings and treatment for children, adolescents, families, couples, and individual adults, with our licensed experienced therapists in-person in the Bay Area, or throughout California online, and our employment opportunities, go to sfiap.com. To learn more about our associateships and psych assistantships and low fee treatment through our nonprofit Bay Area Community Counseling and Family Institute of Berkeley, go to sf-bacc.org and familyinstituteofberkeley.com. If you'd like to support therapy for those in financial need and training and evidence-based treatments, you can donate by going to BACC’s website at sfbacc.org. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit so all donations are tax deductible. Also, we really appreciate your feedback. If you have something you're interested in, something that's on the cutting edge of the field of psychotherapy, and you think therapists out there should know about it, send us an email. We're always looking for advancements in the field of psychotherapy to create lasting change for our clients.
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including Family Systems, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, Motivational Interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma; and our center for ADHD and Oppositional & Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:31):
In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible. Today, I’ll be speaking with Michelle Ferris, who is a psychotherapist, codependency expert, and anger management specialist with a passion for helping people break free from codependent patterns and manage emotions with confidence. She’s been featured in several online publications and podcasts and is known for her down-to-earth approach and deep expertise. Michelle empowers her clients to stop people-pleasing, trust themselves again, and build the healthy, connected relationships they’ve always wanted. Through her online courses and digital resources, she teaches practical tools for codependency recovery, emotional regulation, self-trust, and lasting relationship success. She teaches a four-week class, Beyond Codependency.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (02:58):
She also has a website with free resources for therapists on codependency and anger. Let’s listen to the interview. Well, hi Michelle. Welcome. Thanks for joining.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (03:09):
Thanks so much, Keith, for having me. I’m excited.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:12):
Yeah, so I had sent some information about this podcast on some of our local listservs, and you had replied and mentioned that you do a lot of work around codependency and that you’ve been on different podcasts about this topic. I thought that would be really interesting to learn more about. So we set this up to do the interview. Before we even get into codependency work, I always love to hear how people got into doing what they’re doing—their thinking.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (03:41):
Yeah. Well, even as a little girl, I always knew my family was dysfunctional, and I wanted to figure it out—why this was happening. I always had an interest in that. When I was about 20, I had a girlfriend who was sober at 14, and I went to AA meetings with her. I thought it was the coolest thing ever, but I wasn’t an alcoholic, so I didn’t really think about it.Fast forward to my early twenties, I got into food addiction recovery and codependency recovery. That’s when I thought, I really do want to be a therapist, because it gave me principles for living that I didn’t get growing up. I always felt like, where’s the rule book for healthy living and healthy relationships? I certainly didn’t have it, because I was super codependent myself. That was honestly the motivation. Seeing how much hope recovery gave me, and the people I saw in recovery, really made me want to spread the word. Sometimes therapy gets a bad rap—that you have to do it for years and it’s hard work. And yes, that can be true, but there are also ways to get relief quickly with the right support. I’m a big advocate of that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (05:11):
Yeah. Wonderful. That’s great. Tell me a little bit about how you define codependency. I know sometimes when I bring it up with clients, people see it as a dirty word or as blaming, but it’s actually a very helpful concept for understanding what’s happening.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (05:30):
Yeah, it is. And there’s a continuum. You can have some of the symptoms or all of them. At the heart of codependent people is a huge heart—they want to give and contribute. How I define it is that it’s a relationship pattern of over-functioning in hopes of getting love, support, and validation that you can’t give to yourself. We’re usually the helpers, the givers, the people trying to fix and control things because we’re very outwardly focused on what other people are doing. That’s how we grew up staying safe. Most people with codependent tendencies grew up in families where they weren’t seen or heard, and adult problems overshadowed everything. They learned early to be quiet, be people pleasers, take care of others, and neglect themselves. That sets up a pattern of over-functioning in adulthood, leading to one-sided and toxic relationship patterns.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (06:43):
Yeah. I imagine there’s a lot of focus on the other person, especially if you grew up with parents who were unpredictable or reactive. You had to pay attention to keep them happy or calm things down.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (07:01):
Right. And that can become a gift. That hypervigilance means I can walk into a room and know who’s upset and who isn’t. The problem is that without recovery, we might assign negative meaning—thinking someone is mad at us because of a look, when they may just be having a feeling that has nothing to do with us. But that gift of reading the emotional temperature of the room is important to recognize.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (07:33):
Yeah. Being very attuned. And one piece is thinking someone is mad at me. The other piece is over-responsibility—feeling like I have to fix it or make sure they’re not mad anymore.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (07:50):
Exactly. And there’s usually a lot of anxiety around that. It’s funny, because early in my recovery, I didn’t relate to the word anxiety at all. I thought, no, I’m not anxious. Then I look back and think, oh my God, yes, I was, because I was constantly looking for ways to matter, and I couldn’t sit still in my own skin. That’s another aspect of codependency: we really don’t have a strong sense of self because we’re constantly looking to others for that. So we may be the chameleon. We may change who we are depending on who is sitting across from us. We may change our opinions. If somebody is a Republican, we may say, yes, we agree. If somebody is quiet, we’re going to match them by being quiet. Whatever that is, we’re really good at figuring it out. The problem is that we don’t know who we are in that process.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (08:44):
Definitely, yeah. In one sense, the self is very significantly affected. If they’re happy with me, I’m good. If they’re upset with me, I’m bad. And so, right, having that stable sense of self becomes really difficult. Now, can you talk about codependency and boundaries? Because I think there are differences and similarities, and it’s such an important topic. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (09:10):
Sure. Most people who struggle with codependency don’t set boundaries because it’s way too threatening to say no or to say, “I can only give this much.” Their whole mindset is, how can I please you so that I feel safe and loved? They don’t see boundaries as a healthy option. They see them as a very scary, potentially abusive option. If we grew up in a family where our needs and feelings were not honored, we’re not going to want to ask for what we want in adult relationships. We’re going to say, “Oh no, no, no—whatever you want.” Because if I say I disagree with you, you could hit me, you could tell me I’m stupid, you could tell me I’m too sensitive—and I won’t risk that. So that’s where we go.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (10:02):
That’s why I like defining boundaries as determining the actions you take—what you choose in or out of. If we make boundaries about the other person’s behavior, of course they can say no. Then we feel frustrated and powerless. But if I can choose in or out of a certain behavior that’s in front of me, then I feel empowered. That’s the confusion I like to educate clients about. Boundaries don’t have to be scary. Taking care of yourself might simply mean leaving the room because the discussion has become toxic. You don’t have to have a big, long discussion.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (10:46):
Exactly. I think that’s a really key misunderstanding for many people. They’ll say, “They’re not respecting my boundaries.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (10:55):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (10:55):
But that statement itself misses the point. When someone crosses a boundary, it’s about how you respond. We don’t have control over the other person or their side of the street. It’s about what we do on our side. Like you said, if someone keeps pushing, you can say, “If this continues, I’m going to leave the room,” and then follow through.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (11:24):
Right. And when people violate our boundaries, the gift is that we get important information about how safe and respectful that person really is. I take that information in, and I lower my expectations if someone can’t respect my boundaries. I’m not going to try to make them change. Instead, I might decide not to talk about vulnerable subjects with them because it’s not safe.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (11:58):
Yeah. You’re not putting yourself in that situation.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (12:03):
Right. Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (12:04):
So what do you think are the key aspects of codependency that are important for therapists to understand when helping clients?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (12:19):
The over-functioning pattern is huge. If a client is resentful, that’s a major clue. They’re likely giving more than they want to, but they don’t feel like they have a choice. They may not be communicating honestly, so they’re holding a lot of hurt that turns into resentment. They may want to control situations or outcomes because that’s the only way they feel safe. Often, a codependent client presents wanting to fix the relationship without realizing their part in it. This can show up in parent-child relationships, especially when a parent is overly enmeshed with an adult child and doesn’t understand why the child has pulled away. They may constantly text or call, saying, “How are you? Call me back. I texted you.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (13:19):
This is also very common in women’s friendships, where intimacy becomes so enmeshed that boundaries disappear. Then the relationship crashes and burns. Of course, it shows up in romantic relationships too. The common theme is, “I have to fix this relationship. What can I do?” And when they describe the relationship, it’s usually one-sided. They’re giving, the other person isn’t supportive, and that person may have narcissistic traits, addiction issues, or significant problems. That’s often who the codependent is drawn to. Unless they’re already in recovery, they’re not likely to say, “I’m codependent and I want help.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (14:29):
Many of my clients find me through my YouTube channel and already self-identify. But if they don’t, therapists really need to look for those one-sided relationship patterns. That helps guide where to go clinically. They want to fix their relationships, but I help them see that they have to start befriending themselves. Without a connection to self, they’ll continue over-functioning and seeking validation from others.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:11):
Yeah. It makes me think that when codependent clients want to fix the relationship, their solution is often, “I need to do more.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (15:21):
Yes. Absolutely. And the question is, is that working? Usually, when we do more, it gives the other person permission to do less. The pattern becomes, “They’ll always reach out, so I don’t have to.” The hardest part of codependency recovery is doing less. That’s the first step. For me, that meant not responding immediately, not sending a second text if I didn’t hear back, and getting busy with my own life. I had to stop hyper-focusing on other people because that focus led to pain, emptiness, and tying my value to relationships.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:13):
And often the belief is, “If I just do it right, they’ll treat me better, they’ll connect, they’ll respond.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (16:41):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:42):
Then realizing it’s not all dependent on you, and that doing less might actually be necessary. Focusing more on your own integrity.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (16:55):
Exactly. Therapists can really help here by asking, “What have you tried? Has it worked?” Clients need to see for themselves that they’re doing backflips and nothing is changing. We can tell them they’re doing too much, but it really lands when they realize, “I can’t keep this up. I’m anxious and overwhelmed all the time.” That insight helps them see how their codependency is preventing relationships from becoming healthy.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (17:34):
Definitely. You mentioned befriending yourself earlier. Can you talk more about that?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (17:43):
Sure. About seven years ago, I had a very close friend—another therapist. We were close for a couple of years, and then suddenly she ended the friendship. It devastated me. The grief was intense. I realized I had lost myself again. Even though I had boundaries and recovery, I had made her my higher power. That was the wake-up call. I still needed someone else to fill me up.That’s when I knew I had to learn to be with myself. I grieved, wrote, walked, and learned to sit still within myself—something I had avoided. We often don’t see our own value because we want healthy relationships so badly. But as cliché as it sounds, loving yourself really is necessary to love others.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (19:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Farris (19:11):
You know, I mean, if I can’t be comfortable in my own skin, how the heck am I going to navigate a relationship that could come and go or end at any moment? You know? Because there are no guarantees, whether there’s a marriage certificate or not. So that was a huge wake-up call for me. And that’s why I think befriending ourselves is a really big part of the process. But some people aren’t quite ready to do that work when they first come in.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (19:38):
Yeah. Well, I think it creates desperation too. Yes, right? If I lose this relationship, then—right—I’m alone. Right? Or it makes me think about the role of shame. You know, I imagine, right, yeah, as the sense of self is not really grounded or solid, and whether I’m good or bad depends on how this other person feels about me. Sometimes an underlying— I mean, a lot of this is mixed in with complex PTSD, of course. Yes. You know, and right, right. Pete Walker, in his book Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, talks about toxic shame. And I think it’s that shame—if I get other people to like me, then I’m good. But if they don’t like me, then it means, oh, that fear that I really am bad or no good. It’s actually true. And trying to kind of fill that emptiness or—yes—I think the “hungry ghost” that they talk about in addictions and so on.
Michelle Farris (20:46):
Oh, I haven’t heard that term.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:47):
Oh, yeah, yeah. I know exactly where that’s from. I heard it from Gabor Maté originally, but it’s from somewhere else—that there’s just this hungry emptiness that we’re trying to fill with addiction, with codependency.
Michelle Farris (21:00):
Oh, I love that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:02):
Yeah. But yeah, I think that shame or sense of self, and kind of getting that validation or feeling like, if I don’t have this, then who am I? And befriending oneself, and really—yeah—working through that shame to have that self-compassion.
Michelle Farris (21:21):
Yeah. I think shame is a huge part of codependency, because when we make a mistake, we feel like we are the mistake, and we can’t get over it. And that’s part of the work—to realize that everybody makes mistakes, but we have to kind of learn to accept that about ourselves. The other thing is, so much of this goes back to what we were told in childhood, where a lot of people who were codependent were told, “You’re being too sensitive,” or “You’re overreacting.” And it’s like, really, we were just having our feelings based on what was happening. But a lot of adults don’t know how to deal with kids’ feelings or teenagers’ feelings, so we make them wrong for it. And luckily, I think that’s starting to change with all the education we have now. So I think your point about shame is really important, because that’s what keeps us stuck. If I think inherently that I’m being too sensitive and it’s my fault, then I’m not going to want to do anything different, because I’m stuck in that shame and I’m not going to be able to get out.
Michelle Farris (22:27):
And that’s why I think 12-step programs are really key for that. Because if people can do Al-Anon or CODA, or She Recovers—which is another one that’s not specific to codependency, but it’s a women’s support group that’s so helpful—because in telling your story and sharing it at meetings over and over again, you are going to get that confidence and that sense of self to realize that, you know what, I wasn’t bad. I’m not a bad person. Everybody else is doing this stuff too. I’m not alone. I’m not defective. And I think that’s why I’m really a big proponent of additional support groups for codependency.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:10):
Well, and 12 Steps are great. I have a number of family members in 12-step groups and grew up as a kid going to them and so on. And oftentimes it’s a community, which is really nice. Yeah. Really, I think one of the biggest things is facing that shame—when people are telling their story and speaking to it—rather than running away from it or avoiding it. One way I’ve conceptualized this shame related to complex PTSD is that, oftentimes as a child, it’s hard to realize that it’s not really about you—it’s about the parent. And now there’s this feeling the kid has of, “If I just do it right, the parent will be happy with me.” So if I do it wrong, then shame—rather than, as an adult, the person realizes, no matter what I did, it wasn’t going to make things better with my parents because of their narcissism, their alcoholism, their abuse, or whatever it might be. I was just a kid. And so that shame oftentimes was a survival skill—to keep the person in shape to try to make it through that maze of that situation.
Michelle Farris (24:23):
Yeah. And you know, 18 years is a long time to have that experience. So that’s why we really have to be gentle with ourselves. Someone emailed me the other day asking about my codependency class, and they said, “Are you recovered?” And I was like, no, I don’t believe in that. I believe that I am recovering one day at a time, but this is not something that we’re going to achieve perfection over. And, “Oh, I’m done. I’m done being codependent. Thanks.”
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (24:51):
You’re in recovery—yes. Perpetually in recovery.
Michelle Farris (24:55):
Absolutely. But it was interesting, because there are some people that want to know, “Hey, can this end?” And I believe the big painful patterns can, but I see it as a process and not a destination, because that’s really, really hard to achieve with any psychological issue.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:14):
Yeah. We’re going to have our reflexes that have been ingrained over years and years, but we can respond to them differently rather than just reacting. So there’s a thought that kind of came to my head—I’d love to hear your thoughts on this—but sometimes the way I think about it with someone who’s codependent is helping them to be appropriately selfish.
Michelle Farris (25:35):
Oh, yes. Yes. I mean, that is such a dirty word for codependent people. And yet, it’s like, really, “selfish” means I count too. It doesn’t mean, okay, now I’m only going to focus on myself and I’m not going to give up at all. I mean, the goal in codependency recovery is to give without it hurting you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:57):
Yeah. Oh, I like that.
Michelle Farris (25:58):
You know, and sometimes what I’ll tell people is, if you’re asked for a favor, instead of saying no—because maybe you’re not ready to say no—maybe you do half of it. I could help you for two hours instead of four. You know, and that could be a win. Or you support them in figuring out a different option because you’re not available. That’s showing support. But realizing that we don’t always have to say one hundred percent yes and commit to something when, in our hearts, we’re saying, no, I don’t want to do that. You know, I need to give myself permission to just not do it. And that doesn’t mean anything bad about them. It just means you’re kind of done. And that’s actually a sign of health.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (26:43):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, oftentimes—yeah—I like that idea of valuing yourself that way rather than always self-sacrificing. Looking at what’s good for them, what’s good for me, and how do we kind of put this together to get a win-win, or be able to do that for them because it’s not going to take away too much from me. As we’re talking about this, I guess one of my thoughts is that oftentimes I think the biggest fear is that I’m going to lose the relationship.
Michelle Farris (27:14):
Yes. Yes. Well, and that’s why I always say, do baby steps first. Try expressing a difference of opinion. Practice saying, “You know what? I’d rather go to this place than this place today.” Because really, those are little mini tests to see how that relationship and that person are going to react. Because if they flip out when I say no, that’s a really good sign that they don’t need to be in my inner circle. Now, if they’re your spouse, then you have to practice a lot of detachment, and you need other forms of support if you decide to stay in that marriage. But yeah, I think that’s a really, really good point. When somebody violates our boundaries, or when we’re trying to practice new behavior, the people who love you are going to say, “Yes, take care of yourself. I don’t want you to run yourself ragged.” Those are the people we want to flourish and really nurture. But the people who make us feel bad or gaslight us over what we need—those are the people we really need to be more mindful of and step back and realize that we can’t keep putting our emotional eggs in that basket because it’s toxic.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (28:25):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think also, you know, when there are healthier boundaries, you’re okay with losing relationships.
Michelle Farris (28:36):
Yes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (28:37):
Right. And if this person doesn’t like it, then it’s like—right—unfortunately, it’s not going to work.
Michelle Farris (28:43):
And that’s where the befriending comes in, right? Yeah. Because if we don’t do that piece, we’re not going to let go. And that’s often what happens in codependent relationships—they won’t let go no matter what.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (28:55):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that idea too of, like, “Hey, okay, this isn’t going to work out. It’s okay.” It’s hard to do that if one doesn’t feel whole themselves. Right. And I think that, like you’re saying, that befriending—otherwise it goes to shame, and I can’t be with myself.
Michelle Farris (29:13):
Yeah. And sometimes the goal is just to try to spread those emotional eggs out. Like, if everyone gets twelve, right, how many are you putting in one person’s basket? Because we really don’t want twelve—or even ten—in your spouse. You don’t want that many. So maybe the goal is to start meeting new friends and seeing how that goes, and noticing what kind of person you show up as. Because that can also be a way to start to detach and not be so dependent on whatever person you’re hyper-dependent on.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (29:51):
Definitely. And I think you mentioned something earlier that I often associate with codependency—where you end and where I begin.
Michelle Farris (30:00):
Yes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:02):
And I think that’s a big piece that is sometimes hard for others—and even, I think, for us as therapists—to help our clients with. And they’re being “resistant.” Can you talk a little bit more about this idea of where you end and where I begin?
Michelle Farris (30:22):
Yeah. So Al-Anon has a saying about “stay in your hula hoop,” and I love that. Because our hula hoop is what we say, what we do, what we think. Literally, that’s it. Everything that the other person is contributing is on them. We don’t have any responsibility for what the other person is doing or saying. Now, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t going to impact us or trigger us—but that’s our work to do. That’s not the other person’s job to fix themselves, because that’s their choice. But I think being able to really separate, okay, where’s my reaction versus what’s happening—that’s the art. Like, I had a conflict with someone the other day, and I could see that they had an overreaction to something. But my reaction was big. Not with the person, but internally. I was like, whoa, I’m triggered here. And I knew what that trigger was—I’m not seen, I’m not heard. They flipped quickly into anger, but that was my work. I didn’t go back to that person and say, “You really made me scared,” because she didn’t. She just said what she said in the moment. I still had to address what she said, but those emotions I had to deal with separately—writing, making phone calls—so I could have that conversation without spilling all of that onto her, which wouldn’t have been appropriate.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:06):
Not putting that stuff on her, but looking at where the boundaries are—where your stuff is and where their stuff is, and how it might be interacting. I think about motivational interviewing as having a profound respect for others’ boundaries. As therapists, we can get into what they call the “righting reflex”—trying to get somebody on the right path, getting over-invested, and becoming frustrated that the client isn’t doing what we think they should be doing. Other than that, motivational interviewing is really about respect. This person may decide to do heroin for the rest of their life. Ultimately, it’s their choice. We’re trying to help them, of course, but if they decide, “I don’t want to change,” we have to let go. Where they begin, they have the right to their own choices and autonomy. Otherwise, we get into controlling behavior.
Michelle Farris (33:10):
Right. And I’d probably characterize that as the intermediate level of recovery. In the beginning, we’re so reactive, and we tend to take everything personally because our hearts are on our sleeve and we’re looking for love everywhere we go. So again, it comes back to being gentle with yourself. If that’s too big of a piece for you, don’t force it. And that’s our job as therapists—to help clients see that their codependency is actually hurting them, and then to give them alternatives. You can still give, but maybe you don’t give as much, so they can begin to understand what health looks like.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (33:53):
Yeah. And maybe this goes into another term that I often take away from, like, Al-Anon—loving detachment.
Michelle Farris (34:02):
Oh yes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (34:04):
Could you speak on that?
Michelle Farris (34:05):
Definitely. So for me, detaching is letting the other person handle their life, right? And we can actually—like, for instance, if someone is doing something annoying, right—the first thing we want to do is comment. And not that that’s wrong. You could say, “You know what? That behavior is kind of rubbing me the wrong way. I just need to let you know that.” But they have a choice to continue that behavior. So that’s where the detachment comes in. Where if somebody is drinking a lot, if somebody is yelling, I may go, “You know what? I don’t want to be around this. I am going to back up and not say anything.” But I’m essentially voting with my feet by letting them know that, you know what, I’m not going to participate in this because it’s not healthy for me. We don’t have to have a big, long conversation. We can just say, “You know what, I’m out.” Yeah. And often, even with a toxic person, that sometimes gets their attention because they realize, “Oh my gosh, every time I do this, they leave.”
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:08):
Yeah.
Michelle Farris (35:09):
And sometimes that will make that--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:11):
Kill behavior.
Michelle Farris (35:11):
That’s right. And sometimes that other person may do a little bit of self-correcting because they don’t want the person to leave, like yelling or name-calling. You know, I mean, some of these seem obvious, but if we are constantly backing up and practicing good detachment without making the other person wrong, then they get to choose, “Hey, what do I want to do right now?” And that can be a very empowering thing. And that’s why I love detachment, because it works in so many ways when somebody is doing something that we don’t like or agree with.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:45):
Yeah. Like somebody who’s maybe still having a relationship, say, with a parent or something that is maybe—yeah—narcissistic or whatever. And they might be like, “Okay, you know, if you yell, I’m going to hang up.” Right? I’m not going to try—yeah—you don’t yell. Right? That’s whatever you decide on that. But if you do, I’m hanging up, and then we can try again another time or so on. And then, yeah, sometimes through that process, the person does adjust because they don’t want to lose the relationship sometimes. Right? Sometimes they just can’t—if they just can’t get it.
Michelle Farris (36:19):
Well, yeah. And the codependent person tends to want to fix. Yeah. So it’s really hard for us to give up that, “Well, let me just help you out. Let me show you how to do it differently. You can stop yelling—just count to ten.” It’s like, no. But that’s what they have to learn: by trying to give the other person that unsolicited advice, it actually just makes it worse. And they need to learn that by repetition, like we all do.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (36:45):
Definitely. Yeah. And when I think of loving detachment, I oftentimes think of substance abuse, where a member is trying to help out another family member—a child. Mm, yes. But that idea of, like, “I can be detached from the outcome,” because this person may not get sober. They may die. They may be horrible as somebody that you love. We have to kind of detach from trying to make that outcome happen, while at the same time still loving and caring about the person and having boundaries around whatever the connection is. We can meet up for lunch. We’re not going to go to the house because they steal things or whatever it is. But we can still have a connection. I think sometimes people associate detachment with, like, just cutting off, or being cold, or not having any feelings toward a person. But I think it’s more detached from the outcome that the person wants—almost more of an Eastern philosophy.
Michelle Farris (37:49):
Absolutely. And you can say, “You know, this isn’t working for me. I need to hang up right now.” Yeah. I mean, you can put words to it, but sometimes it just depends how often they have to do it. And if somebody’s yelling, I probably wouldn’t. I would just excuse yourself and get out of the room, because we don’t want to do anything. But you bring up a really good point: a lot of times when there is toxic behavior, the codependent person really sees it as, “Well, are you telling me I have to leave?” They only see it as, “I either have to fix and get better, or I have to leave.” And it’s like, no—you can stay in the relationship and practice these skills, because that is going to help give you some serenity. I think they don’t realize there’s a middle step.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:34):
Yeah. It’s often black-and-white or dissociation, right? Which is also part and parcel of the complex PTSD type situation. That’s all-or-none. And sometimes I find people who are a little bit more on the passive side—when they finally try to be assertive—they dig in and become very resolute, not more collaborative or trying to understand and get something that works for everybody. It’s like, “I finally asked for what I need, and I’m going to dig in. I’ve got to fight for that,” rather than having healthy flexibility and being able to tolerate the discomfort of the discord while you figure out the path.
Michelle Farris (39:20):
Right. But that’s a really good point too, because often we’ll swing from not saying anything to now I’m going to demand that I get my needed meds. But that’s part of the process too, because we have to learn that the other extreme doesn’t work either. That’s part of the process—we’re not going to do it healthy or the right way the first time. But each time we practice, even if we don’t get the outcome we want, we’re going to learn a ton about the relationship, about us, and how we could do it differently next time. That’s why I always say, please be gentle with yourself when you’re in the process of recovery, or when you see your clients going through this, because there’s so much going on underneath the surface that they really don’t know how to do any better.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:09):
Yeah, definitely. Well, it also made me think of internal family systems, right? A younger part that is really long--
Michelle Farris, LMFT (40:18):
Absolutely.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:18):
Connection, and yeah, and validation that they maybe weren’t getting from their parents. Yeah.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (40:24):
The other thing I would really recommend therapists doing is suggesting Al-Anon or CoDA. Yeah. Because I know for me, when I do that, it usually does it in stages. Very rarely does somebody take me up on it the first time I present it. But I would keep mentioning it because often there are a lot of myths around, you know, that they’re religious cults, they’re brainwashing you. No, there’s no leader, there’s no religion you have to follow. You get to pick your definition of a higher power or not have one at all. But it’s like once my clients get that additional support, that’s when they start to get it, because it’s not just an hour a week. Because if we’re the only voice helping them, you know, what are they going to do the other six days?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:13):
Well--
Michelle Farris, LMFT (41:13):
It’s going to be--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:13):
Tough. And having a sponsor to be able to help. Yes, right. Because it absolutely identifies what’s happening. Yeah. That’s Step Four, I think, right? Or what’s the higher power one, which really--
Michelle Farris, LMFT (41:25):
Oh yeah, that’s Step Three. It really--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:26):
Trips people up. Yes. People get stuck on that, which is unfortunate because, yeah, there are so many good things in 12-Step. And going through that process and working the steps with a sponsor can really help.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (41:39):
Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:41):
Any books that you recommend, or any particular training or so on for therapists wanting to help support their clients and learn more about codependency?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (41:51):
Oh yeah. Well, Codependent No More is definitely the Bible. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:55):
Even the number one.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (41:56):
And I think she redid it in the last couple of years before she passed. And that’s just the be-all, end-all book. I absolutely love it. Like I said, I always recommend Al-Anon or CoDA. The other thing I would say, though, is that because some people will say, “Well, I went to a meeting and they were all crazy.” And it’s like, you know what? Try six. Exactly. Because every meeting is going to have a different flavor, and some are going to be healthier than others. So don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater and assume that they don’t work. I really want to give people hope that there’s a lot more support out there for free that can really help you. There’s also a group—I’m going to be doing my own class on Beyond Codependency coming up on October 8th, because I find that people really need to talk through their stories and feel like, “Okay, what do I do here?”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (42:56):
Because for me, codependency is like a tree with many branches. It goes everywhere, and it looks different for each person. So sometimes we really need that concentrated support to say, “Okay, what am I doing? What do I need to be focusing on? How can I really start to feel better?” Because yes, Al-Anon and CoDA will do that, but they’re not therapists, so they’re not going to direct the process. Versus if you can find a class like mine—or I’m sure there are others out there—that can give you that concentrated support so you can kind of save the time that it took me. Yeah. That’s part of the reason why I do this.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:37):
Sure, sure. To help people move along and progress a bit quicker through the process. Yeah. And is your group online?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (43:52):
Yeah, it is. But it’s psychoeducation, so I can work with people outside the state.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:56):
That’s great.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (43:57):
It’s definitely not a therapy group.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:59):
And Beyond Codependency—do people have to have already been working on codependency?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (44:05):
Nope.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:06):
They can be new?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (44:07):
Yeah. Because there’s also a video library of 12 videos they’ll have access to right away, so they can get their feet wet. And then the live classes are really for a little bit of teaching, but mostly support and connection.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:20):
Yeah, definitely. I did have one client who was involved with CoDA, and she was in a group that became very codependent with each other, with a lot of struggles, and ended up needing to move to another group. So I think that’s true. And the same with AA. Trying different meetings is often helpful to find--
Michelle Farris, LMFT (44:44):
Absolutely the right--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:45):
Fit. Yeah. Because they’re not all the same—not like Starbucks.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (44:50):
Boy, if only they could be.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:53):
Yeah.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (44:54):
But yeah, I think that’s really important. The other thing is, I do have a free resource for therapists to help them jumpstart how to work with codependent clients and how to work with anger. Because sometimes that’s also a big piece of the work—the codependent person does not want to admit to being angry, but they usually have a lot of resentment stored up that needs to be processed.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (45:18):
Yeah. Say more about that.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (45:20):
So because we say yes and we mean no, and we usually give more than the other person, we’re really good—unfortunately—at keeping score. It’s so uneven and so obviously uneven. Multiply that by six people you’re in relationship with, plus family members, and of course you’re going to hit your limit. What the codependent person typically does is not admit to those feelings, but they leak out—maybe as sarcasm, or ghosting someone, or not responding right away. Those feelings have to come out. And part of a healthy relationship is being able to have all your feelings, and anger is a really important one.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:04):
Yeah, definitely. It’s like the gaslighting car—it’s telling us something. If something’s off balance. There’s also a piece where people preemptively try to do something for someone without asking them and giving them the chance to say yes or no. I’ll sometimes say to clients, “It seems like you might not be respecting them enough to make their own decision, and you feel like you have to make it for them.” And that really strikes them—like, “Oh yeah, they actually have the ability to say no.” Often they assume the other person has a hard time saying no, or whatever it might be. But overextending like that is often where resentment comes from, rather than asking, “Do you want this?”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (47:18):
We jump in because we want to be the hero. We lead with, “Oh, I can see the problem—let me fix it,” hoping they’ll be excited. But when people don’t ask and we jump in, we often overstep without realizing it. That’s a really good point you’re making.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:36):
Yeah. And it can feel intrusive. One of the key takeaways is that most people with codependency aren’t coming in saying, “I have codependency.”
Michelle Farris, LMFT (47:56):
Unless they're already in the process. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:57):
Unless they've kind of gotten there. Yep. But they’re oftentimes maybe going to be coming in about, like, how do I help fix this situation or this problem, or yeah, these other people are, you know, not responding in the way that they should be. Yes. And sometimes being able to start to notice that, that, that can be, you know, a sign that there might be some levels of codependency. Yeah.
Michelle Farris, LMFT (48:21):
For sure.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (48:22):
Well, this has been wonderful, and you’re doing great work. I think this is so important. I think boundaries—you know, everybody talks about boundaries, boundaries—but it’s oftentimes very confusing, and it’s not straightforward. And there’s a lot of nuance to human relationships and interactions. Absolutely. Trauma, you know, or growing up in a situation, boundaries don’t come naturally, and you--
Michelle Farris, LMFT (48:47):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (48:48):
—you figure that out with others, with your own family members, children, spouse, and such. So it’s great work. And then we’ll put a link to the group that you’re doing, because it sounds like a great resource for folks too. For folks, yeah, maybe to get some expert guidance in this kind of process, in addition to getting help from CoDA or other 12-Step programs. Great. Any last piece that you want to throw in that listeners can take away?
Michelle Farris, LMFT (49:19):
You know, just be gentle with yourself. You’re doing great if you’re in this process of recovery—as a therapist, as a regular person. This takes a lot of courage. So I really want them to know that just the fact that they’re putting their attention to this these days says a lot. Yeah. And we don’t want to always base our success on the results, because that doesn’t give us a full picture.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (49:48):
Yeah. I wonder if it is perfectionism mixed in a lot with the—oh, yes—which, for sure, right, goes back down to that toxic shame piece. Yeah. Even if the person is making progress and they slip, or they have a blind spot and they’re engaged in another kind of codependent situation, yeah—they have trouble with that compassion for themselves. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Take care. Thank you. Bye-bye.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (50:17):
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