|
Oona Metz, LICSW - Guest
Oona Metz, LICSW is a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker, a Certified Group Psychotherapist, and a Fellow of the American Group Psychotherapy Association. She has 30 years of experience working with individuals, families, and groups. Her private practice offices are located in Brookline and Arlington, Massachusetts. She is active on numerous committees and boards related to group therapy and prioritizes ongoing learning in diversity, equity, and inclusion. Her practice is focused on treating the emotional aspects of divorce and group therapy, and she leads three weekly divorce support groups. She is the author of Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women. You can learn more about her at her website oonametz.com |
|
W. Keith Sutton, Psy.D. - Host
Dr. Sutton has always had an interest in learning from multiple theoretical perspectives, and keeping up to date on innovations and integrations. He is interested in the development of ideas, and using research to show effectiveness in treatment and refine treatments. In 2009 he started the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, providing a one-way mirror training in family therapy with James Keim, LCSW. Next, he added a trainer and one-way mirror training in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and an additional trainer and mirror in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. The participants enjoyed analyzing cases, keeping each other up to date on research, and discussing what they were learning. This focus on integrating and evolving their approaches to helping children, adolescents, families, couples, and individuals lead to the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy's training program for therapists, and its group practice of like-minded clinicians who were dedicated to learning, innovating, and advancing the field of psychotherapy. Our podcast, Therapy on the Cutting Edge, is an extension of this wish to learn, integrate, stay up to date, and share this passion for the advancement of the field with other practitioners. |
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (00:24):
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton,, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including Family Systems, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, Motivational Interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma; and our center for ADHD and Oppositional & Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:32):
In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c) (3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (02:19):
Today I'll be speaking with Oona Metz, who is a licensed, independent clinical social worker and certified group psychotherapist, and a fellow of the American Group Psychotherapy Association. She has 30 years of experience working with individuals, families, and groups. Her private practice offices are located in Brookline and Arlington, Massachusetts. She's active on numerous committees and boards related to group therapy and prioritizes ongoing learning and diversity, equity and inclusion. Her practice is focused on treating the emotional aspects of divorce and group therapy, and she leads three weekly divorce support groups. She's the author of Unhitched, the Essential Divorce Guide for Women. You can learn more at her website unametz.com. Let's listen to the interview.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:02):
Well, hi, Oona. Welcome.
Oona Metz, LICSW (03:05):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really pleased to be here today.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:08):
Yeah, this is great. So you reached out about being on the podcast. You just had a book that was published on Tuesday, just last week, about your work with women in divorce. And so I'd love to hear about the work that you've been doing and about the book and any help that you could give to therapists who are working with folks going through divorce especially women.
Oona Metz, LICSW (03:31):
Great, great. Well, just in way of background, I've been a therapist for about 30 years and about 16 or 17 years ago, I went through my own divorce, and at the time, I really wish that I could attend a support group and I looked around and there were none available. I was already trained. I have advanced training in group therapy and I got that right after I got my degree. So, and I had been running groups for women. So a little seed got planted in my mind and I thought, you know, this would be a great idea for therapy group is to run a group for women going through divorce. And so after I had spent a little bit of time kind of getting some time and energy and years away from my own divorce, I decided I would start these groups. And so I started, I ended up starting three therapy support groups for women going through divorce. They all filled up immediately and they have all been going meeting weekly for the last 15 years. So it's really a highlight of my week, because I really see that women make so much, change and growth and transformation when they come to the groups. And so it's really been, a wonderful part of my practice, I have to say. And I finally got to the point where there wasn't a book. I could not find a book by a therapist about the emotional journey of divorce for women. And so I finally decided I have enough information kind of jangling around in my head. I've better just write this all down. And so I finally decided a few years back to write it all down. And then the book just came out on Tuesday, so it's been fun to take on a new project I had not written before or published before so it was great
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (05:45):
Congratulations.
Oona Metz, LICSW (05:46):
Thank you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (05:49):
It's such a difficult time, you know, whether the person is the one that chose the divorce or the one their partner chose or is mutually chosen, it's just kind of like the ground falls out from under you all that you have. Like, you know, kind of, stable and predictable and so on kind of falls apart and disappears to then kind of create a whole new life in a whole new world--
Oona Metz, LICSW (06:14):
Absolutely.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (06:14):
So, yeah. Tell me about how you go about helping folks as they go through that journey or what you found in folks, if there's kind of themes or stages to those journeys.
Oona Metz, LICSW (06:27):
Yeah. So as I was writing the book and the book is called Unhitched, the Essential Divorce Guide for Women. As I was writing the book, I got to this section where I thought, you know, it would be really helpful if I could present kind of a stage model or a map, if you will, of how the emotional journey of divorce goes. And so I looked at all the literature and for the most part, people will, were still using that old Kubler Ross stages of grief that was developed in the seventies, and I think is, you know, a useful model. It has its pluses and, but it didn't really quite fit for divorce. And so I really began to think about, I mean, I've seen literally hundreds of women through the divorce process. So I began to think about like what are the stages that they've gone through as they have, you know, kind of gone through this journey of divorce. And that's how I came up with my five phase model, so I'm happy to lay that out for you if you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (07:39):
Yeah, that'd be great.
Oona Metz, LICSW (07:39):
That would be helpful.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (07:40):
Tell me about that, please.
Oona Metz, LICSW (07:42):
Yeah, I think it's helpful for people going through divorce. I also think it's really helpful for therapists when they're working with people going through divorce, because, you know, there are certain phases where people can't do certain kinds of work. So I'll just go through each one by one and kind of let you know what I think for the people going through, and then how therapists might help those people.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (08:07):
Yeah. And that's great that you're even expanding on, you know, some of the old models of kind of the Kubler Ross. I know that I have a image that I pull up online that I show clients sometimes. There's like, how I think it's going to be in this kind of straight line that's down, and then it's how it really is in this like, squiggly line, bouncing all over the place and such, because it's not linear
Oona Metz, LICSW (08:26):
I think that's on page 173 of my book, actually.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (08:31):
Oh great. Wonderful. Yeah. No, that's one of my favorite images. But yeah, it's great. I mean, there definitely is phases though, and right. How people walk through. So, yeah tell me about the five phases. What are the five phases?
Oona Metz, LICSW (08:43):
Yeah, so I think the first phase is really what I call the heartbreak phase. And I think that it's heartbreaking if you initiate divorce or if divorce is initiated upon you, so to speak. You know, people might think, oh, well, it's only heartbreaking if the other person initiates it. But I think nobody goes into marriage thinking that they want to get divorced or that it's a good idea or it's a dream come true. You know, you only initiate a divorce after you've had your heart broken a number of times. You know, each time you're not heard, each time your needs aren't taken into account each time, you know, you're criticized each time there's like a mismatch in your marriage. You can have a little heartbreak.
Oona Metz, LICSW (09:35):
So that's, I think, always the first stage and I think if you haven't been the one to initiate it, and you're in, you're already in therapy, maybe you're in therapy for anxiety or depression or, or even, you know, something pension in your marriage, and then all of a sudden, your spouse initiates marriage, I think that's a time for therapists to really be able to switch gears and stay very present oriented. So if the therapist is kind of, you know, has been going into the past into childhood patterns and things like that, they may really need to pivot at that moment to really just being very present with the client who's coming in and somebody's initiated divorce. They may really need to be focused on self care. They may need to be focused on anything going on with the body at that point because a lot of that stress will come out in the body. So it's a moment in time where I think it's really important to just be exactly where the client is and know that your work may change suddenly on a dime.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (10:48):
Yeah well, you're in the middle of their trauma that they experience because I'm feeling helpless, especially if they didn't see it coming, if somebody initiates the divorce. And I had heard somewhere, I don't know if there's any literature to back it up that, you know, before people initiate a divorce, oftentimes they've been thinking about it and kind of preparing themselves emotionally for years and then oftentimes they're already at one place while the person who wasn't initiating the divorce, they're just kind of starting their process. And so there's kind of that different aspects of where folks are. Kids, that can be confusing because one parent's doing better than the other or so on, or whatever it may be. Yeah.
Oona Metz, LICSW (11:33):
Yeah. Absolutely. No, you're absolutely right about that. I think especially women oftentimes, and women with kids oftentimes think about divorce for years before they actually initiate it. So that's the first phase. I think that phase is oftentimes followed by a phase that I call the rollercoaster. And that's the rollercoaster of emotions. So I think that's a phase that's oftentimes the longest. It is exacerbated by the court system, which is not friendly to families. It's not friendly to feelings at all and it can be hard to deal with lawyers as well. And the rollercoaster phase really is a time where I think people are feeling so much so they may be feeling incredibly sad, incredibly angry, fearful, confused, and also maybe some relief too, and the feelings come fast and furious. Often they're having more than one feeling at a time.
Oona Metz, LICSW (12:43):
And I think in this phase, it's really up to the therapist to normalize how appropriate it is for people to be feeling, to really help them to name their feelings so they're not acting on them. You know, it's okay to say, I want to kill my spouse, it's not okay to kill your spouse and distinguishing between those two can be really helpful. And also for the therapist to let people know that this phase is not going to last forever, right? Like, yes, it feels so intense right now. It feels so frequent and it's not going to last forever. You're in it right now. It's appropriate to be in it right now. You know, the Holmes Rahe Stress Scale rates divorce as the second most stressful life event, right after the death of a loved one and in fact, they rate it as more highly stressful than jail time.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (13:46):
Oh, wow.
Oona Metz, LICSW (13:47):
So, yeah. Yeah. My question is always, well, how much jail time
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (13:52):
Yeah. Right.
Oona Metz, LICSW (13:53):
Because I think I'd rather be in jail for one day than get divorced, but I don't know that I'd rather be in jail for a year.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:00):
Yeah, definitely--
Oona Metz, LICSW (14:01):
-- than get divorced. So they didn't specify that. But anyway, just to know that it's a really stressful time and I think for the therapist to really, be able to hold the nuance of people having, you know, like, I have clients who come to me and they're like, I'm so, so, so angry at my ex. And I also miss them.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:25):
Yeah.
Oona Metz, LICSW (14:26):
You know
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:27):
That whole mix of feelings. Yeah. I do emotionally focused couples therapy and which is basically Attachment Theory and just so painful to lose that attachment, even if you are the one that's initiating it--
Oona Metz, LICSW (14:43):
Oh, absolutely---
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:45):
--Our primary drive. And I think too that, I had one person kind of describe it as like they felt like they were out on a rowboat in the ocean, in the dark with horrors and just like feeling untethered or, I like the title of it, unhitched, because often that's how it feels like all the mourn, the grounding that was there is kind of all of a sudden gone.
Oona Metz, LICSW (15:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:12):
And maybe you could talk a little bit about too about, you know, divorce process because for therapists that aren't necessarily as familiar, you know, I know there's a number of different options for clients, around, you know, how they can, some of them, if it's mutual, they can do the paperwork themselves for a divorce, some can mediator, collaborative mediation divorce, collaborative divorce, which ideally is trying to help the family be as whole as it can afterwards. And oftentimes I even encourage people that are trying to see if they make that decision or their spouse has been bringing up to even just get consultation from---
Oona Metz, LICSW (15:51):
-- Yes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:52):
--So they just know what their rights are and so on. They don't even have to hire somebody, but just to be informed.
Oona Metz, LICSW (16:00):
Absolutely. And I wonder if we want to go through the five stages and then we can come and talk about that piece because I think that is important about the therapist role in a divorce. Yeah. Does that make sense?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:13):
Yeah, definitely.
Oona Metz, LICSW (16:14):
Yeah. So I think the rollercoaster is then followed by a phase that I call mending. And mending is I think when the client begins to refocus a little bit on themselves. And there's so much energy, I think time and energy and focus that can go to the X and to the divorce during the active phase of the divorce. But the mending phase is really a time where you begin to see the client, kind of their central nervous system can settle a little bit, so that then they can actually do some work to think about themselves and what they need, what they want, and kind of what next steps are. And this is a time also where I see sometimes a renegotiation of boundaries, not only with the ex, but with other people around them. One of the things that I see, which is pretty interesting, is that if people are coming out of a marriage, which is in any ways abusive, a lot of times if they renegotiate the boundaries with their ex, they may realize that there's other people in their lives too who are not treating them so well.
Oona Metz, LICSW (17:31):
So I've had plenty of women who come out of the divorce and then they end up, for instance, quitting their job or getting a new job because they realize, wow, their boss isn't treating them well either, but they're kind of so used to being treated that way. And once they are out of their marriage and they're no longer, longer being treated that way, they can then realize there's other people too who are treating them that way. So that's the mending phase, that's the third phase. And I think the fourth phase, which is really important in terms of the whole grieving process, is letting go. And I just think there are so many things to let go of in a divorce. People are letting go of their spouse obviously they may be letting go of their house, they may be letting go of seeing their kids every day if they're a parent and they're sharing parenting time. And, but there's other things too, I think they're letting go of an identity of being a married person or the identity of being part of an intact family and they also have to let go of their ex's narrative of what happened in the marriage or what happened in the divorce. And a lot of times if people can't do that letting on, that letting go phase, it's very hard for them to move on to the fifth phase.
Oona Metz, LICSW (18:50):
So I really think that these five phases are necessary in terms of getting to the point of being able to grow and heal and transform. I mean, I think divorce is always heartbreaking and stressful and never something you want to go through. But I think if people do the real work of grief then they can get to, you know, what I think is the, the final stage, which is the moving on stage and not that moving on stage doesn't mean that divorce, you're going to forget about your divorce or your divorce isn't always going to be part of you. And certainly if you're co-parenting, you know, sometimes, and if it's a difficult co-parenting relationship, it can be very hard to move on because you may be dealing with your ex every day. But I think for me, moving on means you're taking that energy that you are using in your marriage or in your divorce, and you're investing that energy into something else that brings you purpose or meaning or even joy. And that might be a new career, it might be a new hobby, it might be, you know, a new TV series. I mean it could be something small. It might be dating, it might be dating yourself, it might be dating somebody else. But you're kind of, you're, you're having the divorce be in your rear view mirror rather than right in front of you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:21):
Yeah. It's kind of starting that next chapter, whatever that may be.
Oona Metz, LICSW (20:24):
Yeah. Because divorce is definitely about endings, but it's also about beginnings too. You know?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:32):
Definitely. Well, I imagine too that as you're saying, kind of going through these phases, somebody might get stuck right in in one of these, sort like you're saying the, the letting go or so on and so as the therapist, helping to identify that with the client or, you know, have the therapist even have a map of kind of seeing where the person may be throughout that process.
Oona Metz, LICSW (21:04):
Right, right, exactly. And really helping them, you know, I think the one that people want to skip over the most is probably the feelings, you know, the rollercoaster of feelings. If they're uncomfortable with that level of feelings, they can often jump to some form of distraction. Like, I often see women dating too quickly because they want to be distracted, they want to feel something different than all of that grief. But it kind of slows the process down in a way, if you, if you try to skip over some of it
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:39):
Yeah. Or sometimes it's so unprocessed, so it kind of gets stuck. Yeah.
Oona Metz, LICSW (21:43):
Yeah. Or if people aren't able to do the letting go, you know, it can, it can end up with people feeling pretty bitter. And I think it's good for people to feel angry and express their anger absolutely. And use their anger as a fuel to kind of fuel they're moving on. But I think getting stuck in anger often leads to bitterness, and that doesn't really do anybody any good
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (22:10):
Right. Yeah. Well then oftentimes it is hard to move on because the focus is so much as you're kind of saying in the rear view mirror is kind of the main focus rather than looking ahead. And being able to have some of one's own agency. So I'm interested in this piece with the roller coaster. Do you find, you know, what are the differences you find when somebody was initiating it themselves or somebody who maybe had it initiated upon themselves? And you were describing earlier how, you know, oftentimes the person that does initiate it, you know, they've had maybe these, all these experiences of the criticism or so on and have that heartbreak or in a EFT, they call it oftentimes the burnt out pursuer, who's been trying and trying so hard and not able to reach their partner until they just kind of detach essentially that it's to protect themselves. Those are the hardest situations to get back from if the couple hasn't ended yet, because the person's trying to protect themselves their pain.
Oona Metz, LICSW (23:25):
Yeah. I think if your spouse is the one who's initiated the divorce, I think oftentimes those rollercoaster feelings will be even more intense. I think the the biggest difference, and especially if it comes abruptly, it's one thing if, you know, you're in couples therapy for a couple years, or you know, a decade and you've been talking and trying to make it better and it hasn't been working, but, you know, I've seen plenty of women where they get a text message after 30 years of marriage that their spouse is out, you know, is gone, is leaving or it just comes completely out of the blue, or it's a discovery of an affair and the spouse says, you know, okay yeah, you're right. You caught me, but I'm not interested in continuing and I think that will make the rollercoaster highs and lows that much more intense.
Oona Metz, LICSW (24:29):
I think the one thing that really distinguishes when somebody is the initiator is that I find that those people oftentimes have and feel a lot of shame and guilt about their decision. And I think especially for women, we're really socialized to keep the family together, to do anything. It is to be a good parent, to be a good wife, to keep that family going. And so I think that it can be very hard to initiate divorce. And I think people often feel a tremendous amount of guilt when they do. And one of the things, go ahead--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:10):
What? Oh, no, no, you go,--
Oona Metz, LICSW (25:12):
--Oh, I was just going to say, one of the things that I talk to women about a lot that helps with the guilt piece is to really talk about, they may have initiated a divorce, but to think about whether or not their spouse has been actively participating in the marriage or not. And oftentimes what's happened is that the marriage has kind of, has been over for a while. Right. And either they've both stopped trying or the spouse has stopped trying. But the woman in my case, because I just work with women, the women are the ones who have to kind of bear the brunt of initiating the divorce. 70% of divorces in heterosexual marriages are initiated by women.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (26:05):
Oh, really? Didn't know that.
Oona Metz, LICSW (26:07):
70%. Yeah. And I think that's part of the reason why sometimes I think women are kind of put in the position to initiate a divorce of a marriage that's already over. You know, that's been kind of dead in the water for a while.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (26:26):
Well, it makes sense too because you know, as men tend to be the withdrawers in the relationship that it might be disconnected and like you're saying, not participating and, but not necessarily going to pull the trigger and say like, Hey, we're, we're done. This is ending. And just kind of going along, bearing it until the partner finally burns out and decides that I need to move on.
Oona Metz, LICSW (26:51):
Yep. I mean, there's also that research from Harvard that really shows how much marriage benefits men. Both financially health wise and mental health wise. And so I think men are less likely to leave a marriage because I think there are a lot of benefits that come for that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (27:12):
Yeah, definitely. Well and you mentioned the role of shame and I think for both folks in the marriage, I mean oftentimes I know a number of people feel like I failed or we failed at the marriage. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that because I think, and you were mentioning too, the identity too, like, of now being a single person or single parent, you know, that that can be really a huge shift for folks.
Oona Metz, LICSW (27:41):
Yeah. I mean, I think language really shapes culture and culture shapes language. And I'm really passionate about reducing shame and stigma related to divorce. And so, you know, I think we've done a pretty good job of getting rid of words like broken. You know, it comes from a broken home. I think that seems pretty outdated. And failure is the next one that I think we need to really work on getting rid of. Because I think, you know, we have this idea that marriage, it's funny, we have this idea that marriage should last forever. Right. And those are the marital vows of until death do us part. And it's a bit of a weird expectation, especially if you're, you know, 25 years old that you're going to meet somebody and decide that you're going to be with that person for the next, you know, 70 years and neither of you are going to change.
Oona Metz, LICSW (28:44):
And both of you are going to communicate in such a way that, you know, you keep things rolling. I mean, we don't have that with any other institution. We don't expect somebody at 25 to move into an apartment and stay there until death do them part or to get a job at, you know, in the old days, maybe you'd get a job down at the factory and stay there for your entire career. But these days we don't have that expectation anymore. So I think as the therapist helping people to understand that hopefully they did everything they could to try to save their marriage, that their marriage is not a failure. There were good things. You know, it's rare that there's a marriage that's all bad all the time. I mean, almost every marriage has lots and lots of good parts to it. So kind of reframing that as there were a lot of good things that happened, and now you need to restructure your family. So I used-- I like to use the word restructuring rather than your marriage was a failure.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (29:50):
Of course. Yeah. I've heard people use too, like kind of outgrowing, like you're saying, the example of the apartment. Like if you have an apartment to a house, it doesn't mean you failed at the apartment,
Oona Metz, LICSW (30:01):
It's not a failure. Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:03):
It just wasn't the fit for what you needed at the time in your life. And so you needed to, you know, kind of outgrow that or move into a different area.
Oona Metz, LICSW (30:16):
Yeah, we're really trying to change the term custody, which really has its roots in slavery and it really refers to ownership. And so a lot of people in divorce professional world are trying to change that terminology to parenting time or shared parenting time which I think is a much more accurate description and doesn't indicate, you know, that you own your kids in some way.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:50):
Exactly. Well and I don't know what it's like I, where are you located?
Oona Metz, LICSW (30:56):
In Boston, right outside of Boston.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:59):
And I know that over time things have changed where it was oftentimes the mother who was getting the majority of the parenting time, although I know at least in this area in the Bay Area, that there's oftentimes more a tendency for 50/50. I don't know what it's like over in that part of the country.
Oona Metz, LICSW (31:19):
Yeah. It's definitely 50/50 is kind of the standard in this part of the country, unless there is a serious reason why it shouldn't be that way. And I think to just piggyback on that point, I think one of the things for therapists to know if you're working with somebody who is getting divorced, is that the laws about divorce are different in every state. So there's no federal law or policy about divorce. It's different in every state. And you were saying before, you know, encouraging people to get consultations, I think that's really helpful. I think there's some, there's really some danger in therapists recommending certain, like specific lawyers to clients or even specific mediators. Unless you really know the ins and outs of everything about your client and their finances and their kids and you know, the ins and outs of the lawyer that you are recommending.
Oona Metz, LICSW (32:31):
Otherwise, I would really encourage therapists to stay away from recommending a certain lawyer. I would really recommend that they, the client, do a lot of research in a lot of different areas. But I mean I have seen people go to lawyers and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a divorce that was totally unnecessary. And you don't, you don't want to be the person who's recommended that your client go and spend and end up spending $300,000 on a divorce that, you know, could have paid for their kids' college instead of for the lawyers' yacht, you know.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (33:13):
Well, and I oftentimes recommend people get consultation from a collaborative divorce lawyer since their kind of positioning is to basically work with the other lawyer to, you know, kind of have the most in help the family come out of it as unscathed as they can. But they don't necessarily need to even go and do that work with that person, you know, a collaborative divorce. because that is a very lengthy process. This person can just even recommend, you know, kind of, Hey, do the paperwork yourself, it seems like based on the situation but sometimes another lawyer that's not collaborative, might just be like focus on how to get all you can from the other side and more kind litigation and can exacerbate the problems.
Oona Metz, LICSW (34:02):
Exactly. And there are some cases where I think, you know, people do need a litigator. You know there's a lot of deception or, you know, if the person that you're divorcing is somebody that you really, really can't trust and you think going to deceive you, especially if there's a big power imbalance, then it's important to hire a different kind of lawyer. And, you know, in the book, I do go over all the different kinds, the mediation, the collaborative law, and the litigation. I also really suggest that people don't fill out the paperwork on their own without any kind of help. Unless, the only case where I would say you can do a kitchen table divorce is if you have no kids and you have no assets. If you're, if you are like, okay, I'm going to get the couch and you're going to get the blender, then that's fine. You can do it that way. but if you have a home together, if you have any assets together, if there's any big difference in the amount of money that you make, you know--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:15):
--I think that's where the consultation comes in too, that's guiding you because the lawyers don't even have to interact if like you're getting good. They see like, okay, you guys are sorting it out yourself and it can be much less. But definitely having somebody that's going over your rights that knows more than you do.You know and you can even just hire a lawyer for collaboration for a few hours.
Oona Metz, LICSW (35:41):
That's right--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:43):
--Half an hour kind of thing to check it out so that you don't put yourself in a bad position.
Oona Metz, LICSW (35:49):
Exactly. Definitely.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:52):
So there's the shame aspect of it. And then, you know, the flip side of shame is blame. And I know you're talking about a lot of the anger, and I think oftentimes that's where a lot of it comes in. Even like you're saying, the person that initiates there might be a lot of anger because like, you know, feeling like the other person pushed me to this point and I had to do that whatever it might be. So kind of dealing with that shame through anger and sometimes flip-flopping back and forth.
Oona Metz, LICSW (36:21):
So I think in the beginning stages, when your client comes in and is very angry and might be very blaming of their spouse, I think that's a moment to just be with them. Not to try to help them see the other side or help them see their part. Like they may need to stay in that stage for quite some time before they're able to see what their part is or why they chose that person or why they stayed so long, or why, you know, to be more self-reflective. they often need to kind of go through that phase first of, oh my God, I can't believe this person did that to me, and I can't believe I'm so angry.
Oona Metz, LICSW (37:27):
And, you know, so I think sitting with that for a while can be sometimes hard as a therapist if you, especially if you have a history with this client and you're like, well, I actually think this is more of a two-way street than what you're describing but they may not be able to see it in the beginning. And so I think just really aligning with them until they, again, until their central nervous system has calmed down enough that they're able to do some more self-reflection and understand that this is, you know, every marriage is a two-way street. And I don't believe that every marriage, you know, every marriage problem is 50/50. But it's also not 0/10-- you know, 0/100 either.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:09):
Yeah. And kind of in a motivational interviewing view, if the therapist takes one side of the ambivalence, they're just going to list the other side from the client. So needing to go to that dark place with them and be with them and reflect can also create space for that other side to come.
Oona Metz, LICSW (38:27):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:30):
So then there's the mending piece, which you were talking about, and you know, that renegotiating of boundaries. And I was thinking too, you were talking about some of the people in a domestic violence situation or so on, were once kind of getting out then maybe making other changes around their job or so on. And I imagine too, having had the experience of maybe getting out or moving on or things shifting, there might be a feeling of making changes elsewhere in one's life where I'm realizing like, okay, I was able to make this change that maybe there's that opportunity to also take this other risk and make this change in my life.
Oona Metz, LICSW (39:13):
Yeah, I often see a lot of, relationships getting renegotiated during a divorce and, you know, during, and post divorce because I think that people who've been through a divorce, or people who haven't been through a divorce thinks that, the relationship with your spouse is the one that's going to change. But I think that for people who've been through a divorce, they really understand that nearly all of their relationships change during a divorce and need to be re renegotiated. So I mean, your relationship with your family members, with your in-laws . You know, with friends, especially with other couple friends. If you have friends, if you were friends as a couple with other couple friends, sometimes those couple friends don't want to hang out with you anymore. Your relationship with your kids changes. So there's a lot of change that happens.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:12):
And what a great resource to have a group of other folks that are going through this change together to kind of know like, okay, this is quote unquote normal that the things we're going through this isn't because I'm a pariah or something like that and it might be as well as, yes, I think having support of course is so important because, you know, we, we really need to be able to turn to others and begin to have more of that connection support when you're losing such a big piece of support or whatever might have been support prior you thought was support.
Oona Metz, LICSW (40:51):
Yeah exactly. The groups have been incredibly good for that. I think so many times women come to me and they say, how is it possible that 50% of marriages end in divorce and I don't know anyone else going through it? So they really feel so relieved to step into the room and into the group and see that there's other women there who, you know, are going through really very similar situation. And, you know, I always say like, every marriage is unique, every divorce is unique, but there's so many kinds of through lines.
Oona Metz, LICSW (41:26):
There's so many themes, there's so many feelings that really connect them to each other that are so similar. And so they really feel like they're not alone when they're in that room. And I think it also helps them to feel like, because sometimes they'll say, well, I have so many good friends and family members, but I don't want to burn them out by talking to them about this all the time. And if they know the divorce is, I mean, if they know the group is coming on Tuesday, you know, then if something happens over the weekend, they're more able to hold it until Tuesday until the group, rather than calling all of their friends and, and burning out all of their friends over the weekend. So yeah, it's been really helpful.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:10):
Well, I'm curious too, I don't know if there's a certain age that the kids are that's in relationship. I know that in one situation somebody was going through a divorce and their kids were in kindergarten and another parent told them like, Hey, don't worry, once you get to middle school, there's going to be more parents that are going through this divorce or something--
Oona Metz, LICSW (42:31):
Right. That's true.--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:33):
--because they were feeling like they were the only ones that were going to do this. I don't know if you know of any research on that or so on
Oona Metz, LICSW (42:41):
The fastest rising cohort of people who are getting divorced right now is people over 50. The rate of people getting divorced over 50 has doubled in the last couple decades, and the rate for people over 65 has actually tripled.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:57):
Oh, wow.
Oona Metz, LICSW (42:58):
So what I see a lot of is people who get divorced, often when their children have gone to college or are about to go to college. Like, I'll often see a woman who's got a kid who's, you know, maybe a junior or a senior in high school, and then one or two who are already in college or just beyond. That seems to be a time where a lot of people are getting divorced.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:26):
Definitely. And I think another piece that might be important for therapists to know too is that, you know, also connecting folks if they do have children, one, having a co-parenting counselor can be helpful as they're kind of figuring what the the parenting time and the expectations and how holidays are going to go and so on. Particularly co-parenting, having somebody that's not doing therapy. because I know sometimes therapists are kind of trying to do like relationship work between the parents rather than kind of more like, hey, here's what's best for the kids. You know, and not necessarily worrying as much about the rapport alliance with each person, but more kind of getting that perspective, not quite a mediator, but in that realm because I've, you know, talked to other clinicians where their clients have gotten stuck with a therapist who's trying to keep working on improving the relationship between the ex then they're kind of are in a situation where they should not have to be that involved and having a good working relationship, but not necessarily kind of working through all their history or things like that or such.
Oona Metz, LICSW (44:43):
Yeah. It's a very special skillset because, you know, the work of figuring out the parenting plan has to happen quickly. You can't kind of wait for a couple of years until everybody calms down to do that. And yet people are so heated, I think in the moment right in as they're going through or right post-divorce, that it's very hard to kind of just be thinking very succinctly and concretely about what it is the kids need, you know, at that point. So it is a really-- I think it takes a lot of skill as a therapist to kind of leave the feeling states behind to leave the-- trying to improve their relationship piece behind and just, you know, really be focused on, okay, what's going to be best for these kids? How do we work this out? Right. And it may be that the couples, the original couples therapists can't do that work. It may be too triggering to walk into that room yet again.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (45:50):
Yeah. I heard one person describe it as, you know, we're, we're not unpacking your baggage, we're basically trying to get your baggage across the street over to this other side.
Oona Metz, LICSW (45:59):
Right, yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:01):
And then that letting go piece, I think that, you know, you're mentioning how spouse, you know, all these aspects and that also I think helping therapists understand that this is a process, you know? So maybe really digging in, I don't want to leave my house, that's the kids' house, my kids grew up, but they can't afford it. Or they're, you know. It's again, that process that they might have to go through to get to it, and the therapist being able to hold the person as they kind of move through that rather than maybe trying to force them to kind of shift quickly if they're not there.
Oona Metz, LICSW (46:42):
Right. And again, kind of knowing where that line is between somebody really needs to grieve, right. They really need to grieve this marriage, but where is the line between their grieving and they're stuck
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:59):
Yes.
Oona Metz, LICSW (47:00):
Right. In the process and unable to let go. And I think really also as a therapist being able to celebrate like the moments of letting go, right? Like, it's not going to call them all at once. It's not going to be like they're focused on their divorce or their ex on a Tuesday, and then on Wednesday they let go completely. So how can they work with the client to think about, like, is there a way to not answer every text, you know, immediately? Can you leave some time? You know, can you work on leaving 30 seconds before you answer the text? Can you work on leaving a minute now, can you work on leaving five minutes?
Oona Metz, LICSW (47:41):
You know, I love the work of Bill Eddie. Are you familiar with him? He has a lot of great books and, one of them is, or maybe a couple of them are focused on divorce. He has this whole model of communication in a high conflict relationship. And, it's called the Biff model. It stands for brief, informative, friendly, and firm. So when your ex, you know, writes to you and says, you know, I can't believe you, you're such a jerk, and why would you do that? And I want the kids on Tuesday because you had them last Tuesday, and you know, you're this and that, and this and that about being able to not engage in all of that, all of those kind of insults and, being able to just be brief, informative, friendly, and firm. So we talk a lot about that in the groups and how it's hard to do at first but really kind of getting into that model of communication can be really helpful if you're in a high conflict situation.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (48:53):
Yeah, definitely. Because oftentimes just kind of going back and forth, its not going to get anywhere. And it's solving them is going to muddy the waters and get triggered. Yeah and I think this aspect of the letting go, you know, piece too is, you know, a lot of people, the way that they imagine their divorce is going to be in the beginning and their life is going to be, is very different sometimes, especially when the kids, I've had clients who are like, oh, we're going to have family dinner twice a week and we're going to do these, and then, you know, as time goes on, they realize they need that time and that separation, the kids are adjusting. I like the book, Putting Kids First In Divorce, which kind of helps parents and has some nice scripts to help parents kind of talk about the divorce to the children when they announce it at various developmental age levels and so on. I think for therapists a great resource too to help folks as they're beginning to kind of make that transition.
Oona Metz, LICSW (49:59):
Absolutely. Yeah, I've got two chapters in my book that are devoted specifically to kids, are kind of sprinkled throughout, but there's two chapters that are specifically about kids. And one, also a whole section about telling the kids. So, and I really recommend to people, and I think this is where the guilt comes into play, sometimes people feel so guilty, and then they say to their kids, “You know, don't worry, we're always going to have Christmas together,” or “We'll still vacation together.”
Oona Metz, LICSW (50:31):
And I say to them like, please do not promise your kids anything. The only thing you're allowed to promise your kids is that you'll always love them and you'll always be their parent. That's it. Because you don't know anything else about the future. You cannot promise them anything else about the future. You know, you just don't know. And, and you may, it's not that you're lying. You may believe it in your heart of hearts . That you're always going to have Christmas together or you're always going to vacation together, but things shift and change, and that may not always be true, and you just don't want to be in that position where the kids say, but you promised, you know?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (51:08):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also reminding parents too, that it's the attachment relationship that they have with the kids and the attachment relationship in the two different homes. If they're in two homes, that's really helped them through this. And, you know, it can be hard and rocky, but they'll get through it. I had one that said, you know, she was probably more into this moving on stage where she was kind of saying,I feel like I'm a better mother now because I have all that time separately to recharge to like all the chores done, do my work. So I'm much more present when I'm with my kids than I was even when we were married.
Oona Metz, LICSW (51:55):
I hear that a lot. Well, also, I think being in an unhealthy marriage takes a lot of energy and strain and it's very stressful. And kids pick up on that, you know? Whether it's a marriage that's too hot, or a marriage that's too cold, you know, I always say there's these temperature problems that marriages have. Right. They can be too hot with too much yelling and conflict or too cold where everything just is shut down and quiet and tense. Yeah. but kids pick up on both of those.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (52:27):
Exactly. Definitely. Well, this is great. So I love this model, with the five phases, and I think that's really helpful both for the clients as well as for therapists to kind of see where people are in their process. And I mean, particularly that rollercoaster phase, I think that that's really a tough phase and it's, you know, as a therapist, if you're a newer therapist or maybe you haven't had clients going through this before, it probably could be alarming. And you staying with your client as they're going through this rollercoaster because sometimes some quick breathing skills or a little cognitive therapy or something is not going to fix all that quickly. It's going to be a process and kind of being able to be with the client while they process that.
Oona Metz, LICSW (53:12):
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (53:13):
Any last pieces that you want to share with therapists that are working in this field or so on that would be important?
Oona Metz, LICSW (53:23):
Well, one thing I just wanted to share is that I have a ton of free resources on my website, which is oonametz.com. So, I've been on a lot of other podcasts as well. and I have a lot of articles there. I have a Psychology Today blog on divorce. And I have a couple of articles in Psychotherapy Networker. I'll be at the American Group Psychotherapy Association Conference in New York in March and actually leading a two day long institute for therapists who are getting divorced.
Oona Metz, LICSW (53:57):
So to kind of reflect on their own process there. So, you know, I really encourage people to stay in touch, and to certainly use my website for resources or send your client there. I'm only licensed in Massachusetts, so I don't see clients outside of Massachusetts, but I do also have a training program for therapists who want to learn how to lead the groups that I do. I ended up with 60 people on a waiting list for my divorce support groups. And so I finally decided to start a training program and train other people. So we now have more groups in Massachusetts, and then groups in Texas and New York City as well. And, I'll be doing more training this year coming up too.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (54:55):
That's perfect. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your time today, and it is really great and looking forward to check out the book and, definitely, I'm so glad it came out just last week, so something a lot lined up. It's wonderful. Thanks for taking the time.
Oona Metz, LICSW (55:10):
Thank you so much, Keith. It's been really wonderful talking to you. Okay,
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (55:14):
Bye-bye.
Oona Metz, LICSW (55:15):
Bye bye.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (55:17):
Thank you for joining us today. If you'd like to receive continuing education credits for the podcast you just listened to, please go to therapyonthecuttingedge.com and click on the link for CE. Our podcast is brought to you by the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, where we provide trainings for therapists in evidence-based models through live and online workshops, on-demand workshops, consultation groups, and online one-way mirror trainings. To learn more about our trainings and treatment for children, adolescents, families, couples, and individual adults, with our licensed experienced therapists in-person in the Bay Area, or throughout California online, and our employment opportunities, go to sfiap.com. To learn more about our associateships and psych assistantships and low fee treatment through our nonprofit Bay Area Community Counseling and Family Institute of Berkeley, go to sf-bacc.org and familyinstituteofberkeley.com. If you'd like to support therapy for those in financial need and training and evidence-based treatments, you can donate by going to BACC’s website at sfbacc.org. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit so all donations are tax deductible. Also, we really appreciate your feedback. If you have something you're interested in, something that's on the cutting edge of the field of psychotherapy, and you think therapists out there should know about it, send us an email. We're always looking for advancements in the field of psychotherapy to create lasting change for our clients.
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton,, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including Family Systems, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, Motivational Interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma; and our center for ADHD and Oppositional & Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:32):
In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c) (3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (02:19):
Today I'll be speaking with Oona Metz, who is a licensed, independent clinical social worker and certified group psychotherapist, and a fellow of the American Group Psychotherapy Association. She has 30 years of experience working with individuals, families, and groups. Her private practice offices are located in Brookline and Arlington, Massachusetts. She's active on numerous committees and boards related to group therapy and prioritizes ongoing learning and diversity, equity and inclusion. Her practice is focused on treating the emotional aspects of divorce and group therapy, and she leads three weekly divorce support groups. She's the author of Unhitched, the Essential Divorce Guide for Women. You can learn more at her website unametz.com. Let's listen to the interview.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:02):
Well, hi, Oona. Welcome.
Oona Metz, LICSW (03:05):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really pleased to be here today.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:08):
Yeah, this is great. So you reached out about being on the podcast. You just had a book that was published on Tuesday, just last week, about your work with women in divorce. And so I'd love to hear about the work that you've been doing and about the book and any help that you could give to therapists who are working with folks going through divorce especially women.
Oona Metz, LICSW (03:31):
Great, great. Well, just in way of background, I've been a therapist for about 30 years and about 16 or 17 years ago, I went through my own divorce, and at the time, I really wish that I could attend a support group and I looked around and there were none available. I was already trained. I have advanced training in group therapy and I got that right after I got my degree. So, and I had been running groups for women. So a little seed got planted in my mind and I thought, you know, this would be a great idea for therapy group is to run a group for women going through divorce. And so after I had spent a little bit of time kind of getting some time and energy and years away from my own divorce, I decided I would start these groups. And so I started, I ended up starting three therapy support groups for women going through divorce. They all filled up immediately and they have all been going meeting weekly for the last 15 years. So it's really a highlight of my week, because I really see that women make so much, change and growth and transformation when they come to the groups. And so it's really been, a wonderful part of my practice, I have to say. And I finally got to the point where there wasn't a book. I could not find a book by a therapist about the emotional journey of divorce for women. And so I finally decided I have enough information kind of jangling around in my head. I've better just write this all down. And so I finally decided a few years back to write it all down. And then the book just came out on Tuesday, so it's been fun to take on a new project I had not written before or published before so it was great
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (05:45):
Congratulations.
Oona Metz, LICSW (05:46):
Thank you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (05:49):
It's such a difficult time, you know, whether the person is the one that chose the divorce or the one their partner chose or is mutually chosen, it's just kind of like the ground falls out from under you all that you have. Like, you know, kind of, stable and predictable and so on kind of falls apart and disappears to then kind of create a whole new life in a whole new world--
Oona Metz, LICSW (06:14):
Absolutely.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (06:14):
So, yeah. Tell me about how you go about helping folks as they go through that journey or what you found in folks, if there's kind of themes or stages to those journeys.
Oona Metz, LICSW (06:27):
Yeah. So as I was writing the book and the book is called Unhitched, the Essential Divorce Guide for Women. As I was writing the book, I got to this section where I thought, you know, it would be really helpful if I could present kind of a stage model or a map, if you will, of how the emotional journey of divorce goes. And so I looked at all the literature and for the most part, people will, were still using that old Kubler Ross stages of grief that was developed in the seventies, and I think is, you know, a useful model. It has its pluses and, but it didn't really quite fit for divorce. And so I really began to think about, I mean, I've seen literally hundreds of women through the divorce process. So I began to think about like what are the stages that they've gone through as they have, you know, kind of gone through this journey of divorce. And that's how I came up with my five phase model, so I'm happy to lay that out for you if you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (07:39):
Yeah, that'd be great.
Oona Metz, LICSW (07:39):
That would be helpful.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (07:40):
Tell me about that, please.
Oona Metz, LICSW (07:42):
Yeah, I think it's helpful for people going through divorce. I also think it's really helpful for therapists when they're working with people going through divorce, because, you know, there are certain phases where people can't do certain kinds of work. So I'll just go through each one by one and kind of let you know what I think for the people going through, and then how therapists might help those people.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (08:07):
Yeah. And that's great that you're even expanding on, you know, some of the old models of kind of the Kubler Ross. I know that I have a image that I pull up online that I show clients sometimes. There's like, how I think it's going to be in this kind of straight line that's down, and then it's how it really is in this like, squiggly line, bouncing all over the place and such, because it's not linear
Oona Metz, LICSW (08:26):
I think that's on page 173 of my book, actually.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (08:31):
Oh great. Wonderful. Yeah. No, that's one of my favorite images. But yeah, it's great. I mean, there definitely is phases though, and right. How people walk through. So, yeah tell me about the five phases. What are the five phases?
Oona Metz, LICSW (08:43):
Yeah, so I think the first phase is really what I call the heartbreak phase. And I think that it's heartbreaking if you initiate divorce or if divorce is initiated upon you, so to speak. You know, people might think, oh, well, it's only heartbreaking if the other person initiates it. But I think nobody goes into marriage thinking that they want to get divorced or that it's a good idea or it's a dream come true. You know, you only initiate a divorce after you've had your heart broken a number of times. You know, each time you're not heard, each time your needs aren't taken into account each time, you know, you're criticized each time there's like a mismatch in your marriage. You can have a little heartbreak.
Oona Metz, LICSW (09:35):
So that's, I think, always the first stage and I think if you haven't been the one to initiate it, and you're in, you're already in therapy, maybe you're in therapy for anxiety or depression or, or even, you know, something pension in your marriage, and then all of a sudden, your spouse initiates marriage, I think that's a time for therapists to really be able to switch gears and stay very present oriented. So if the therapist is kind of, you know, has been going into the past into childhood patterns and things like that, they may really need to pivot at that moment to really just being very present with the client who's coming in and somebody's initiated divorce. They may really need to be focused on self care. They may need to be focused on anything going on with the body at that point because a lot of that stress will come out in the body. So it's a moment in time where I think it's really important to just be exactly where the client is and know that your work may change suddenly on a dime.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (10:48):
Yeah well, you're in the middle of their trauma that they experience because I'm feeling helpless, especially if they didn't see it coming, if somebody initiates the divorce. And I had heard somewhere, I don't know if there's any literature to back it up that, you know, before people initiate a divorce, oftentimes they've been thinking about it and kind of preparing themselves emotionally for years and then oftentimes they're already at one place while the person who wasn't initiating the divorce, they're just kind of starting their process. And so there's kind of that different aspects of where folks are. Kids, that can be confusing because one parent's doing better than the other or so on, or whatever it may be. Yeah.
Oona Metz, LICSW (11:33):
Yeah. Absolutely. No, you're absolutely right about that. I think especially women oftentimes, and women with kids oftentimes think about divorce for years before they actually initiate it. So that's the first phase. I think that phase is oftentimes followed by a phase that I call the rollercoaster. And that's the rollercoaster of emotions. So I think that's a phase that's oftentimes the longest. It is exacerbated by the court system, which is not friendly to families. It's not friendly to feelings at all and it can be hard to deal with lawyers as well. And the rollercoaster phase really is a time where I think people are feeling so much so they may be feeling incredibly sad, incredibly angry, fearful, confused, and also maybe some relief too, and the feelings come fast and furious. Often they're having more than one feeling at a time.
Oona Metz, LICSW (12:43):
And I think in this phase, it's really up to the therapist to normalize how appropriate it is for people to be feeling, to really help them to name their feelings so they're not acting on them. You know, it's okay to say, I want to kill my spouse, it's not okay to kill your spouse and distinguishing between those two can be really helpful. And also for the therapist to let people know that this phase is not going to last forever, right? Like, yes, it feels so intense right now. It feels so frequent and it's not going to last forever. You're in it right now. It's appropriate to be in it right now. You know, the Holmes Rahe Stress Scale rates divorce as the second most stressful life event, right after the death of a loved one and in fact, they rate it as more highly stressful than jail time.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (13:46):
Oh, wow.
Oona Metz, LICSW (13:47):
So, yeah. Yeah. My question is always, well, how much jail time
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (13:52):
Yeah. Right.
Oona Metz, LICSW (13:53):
Because I think I'd rather be in jail for one day than get divorced, but I don't know that I'd rather be in jail for a year.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:00):
Yeah, definitely--
Oona Metz, LICSW (14:01):
-- than get divorced. So they didn't specify that. But anyway, just to know that it's a really stressful time and I think for the therapist to really, be able to hold the nuance of people having, you know, like, I have clients who come to me and they're like, I'm so, so, so angry at my ex. And I also miss them.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:25):
Yeah.
Oona Metz, LICSW (14:26):
You know
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:27):
That whole mix of feelings. Yeah. I do emotionally focused couples therapy and which is basically Attachment Theory and just so painful to lose that attachment, even if you are the one that's initiating it--
Oona Metz, LICSW (14:43):
Oh, absolutely---
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:45):
--Our primary drive. And I think too that, I had one person kind of describe it as like they felt like they were out on a rowboat in the ocean, in the dark with horrors and just like feeling untethered or, I like the title of it, unhitched, because often that's how it feels like all the mourn, the grounding that was there is kind of all of a sudden gone.
Oona Metz, LICSW (15:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:12):
And maybe you could talk a little bit about too about, you know, divorce process because for therapists that aren't necessarily as familiar, you know, I know there's a number of different options for clients, around, you know, how they can, some of them, if it's mutual, they can do the paperwork themselves for a divorce, some can mediator, collaborative mediation divorce, collaborative divorce, which ideally is trying to help the family be as whole as it can afterwards. And oftentimes I even encourage people that are trying to see if they make that decision or their spouse has been bringing up to even just get consultation from---
Oona Metz, LICSW (15:51):
-- Yes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:52):
--So they just know what their rights are and so on. They don't even have to hire somebody, but just to be informed.
Oona Metz, LICSW (16:00):
Absolutely. And I wonder if we want to go through the five stages and then we can come and talk about that piece because I think that is important about the therapist role in a divorce. Yeah. Does that make sense?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:13):
Yeah, definitely.
Oona Metz, LICSW (16:14):
Yeah. So I think the rollercoaster is then followed by a phase that I call mending. And mending is I think when the client begins to refocus a little bit on themselves. And there's so much energy, I think time and energy and focus that can go to the X and to the divorce during the active phase of the divorce. But the mending phase is really a time where you begin to see the client, kind of their central nervous system can settle a little bit, so that then they can actually do some work to think about themselves and what they need, what they want, and kind of what next steps are. And this is a time also where I see sometimes a renegotiation of boundaries, not only with the ex, but with other people around them. One of the things that I see, which is pretty interesting, is that if people are coming out of a marriage, which is in any ways abusive, a lot of times if they renegotiate the boundaries with their ex, they may realize that there's other people in their lives too who are not treating them so well.
Oona Metz, LICSW (17:31):
So I've had plenty of women who come out of the divorce and then they end up, for instance, quitting their job or getting a new job because they realize, wow, their boss isn't treating them well either, but they're kind of so used to being treated that way. And once they are out of their marriage and they're no longer, longer being treated that way, they can then realize there's other people too who are treating them that way. So that's the mending phase, that's the third phase. And I think the fourth phase, which is really important in terms of the whole grieving process, is letting go. And I just think there are so many things to let go of in a divorce. People are letting go of their spouse obviously they may be letting go of their house, they may be letting go of seeing their kids every day if they're a parent and they're sharing parenting time. And, but there's other things too, I think they're letting go of an identity of being a married person or the identity of being part of an intact family and they also have to let go of their ex's narrative of what happened in the marriage or what happened in the divorce. And a lot of times if people can't do that letting on, that letting go phase, it's very hard for them to move on to the fifth phase.
Oona Metz, LICSW (18:50):
So I really think that these five phases are necessary in terms of getting to the point of being able to grow and heal and transform. I mean, I think divorce is always heartbreaking and stressful and never something you want to go through. But I think if people do the real work of grief then they can get to, you know, what I think is the, the final stage, which is the moving on stage and not that moving on stage doesn't mean that divorce, you're going to forget about your divorce or your divorce isn't always going to be part of you. And certainly if you're co-parenting, you know, sometimes, and if it's a difficult co-parenting relationship, it can be very hard to move on because you may be dealing with your ex every day. But I think for me, moving on means you're taking that energy that you are using in your marriage or in your divorce, and you're investing that energy into something else that brings you purpose or meaning or even joy. And that might be a new career, it might be a new hobby, it might be, you know, a new TV series. I mean it could be something small. It might be dating, it might be dating yourself, it might be dating somebody else. But you're kind of, you're, you're having the divorce be in your rear view mirror rather than right in front of you.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:21):
Yeah. It's kind of starting that next chapter, whatever that may be.
Oona Metz, LICSW (20:24):
Yeah. Because divorce is definitely about endings, but it's also about beginnings too. You know?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:32):
Definitely. Well, I imagine too that as you're saying, kind of going through these phases, somebody might get stuck right in in one of these, sort like you're saying the, the letting go or so on and so as the therapist, helping to identify that with the client or, you know, have the therapist even have a map of kind of seeing where the person may be throughout that process.
Oona Metz, LICSW (21:04):
Right, right, exactly. And really helping them, you know, I think the one that people want to skip over the most is probably the feelings, you know, the rollercoaster of feelings. If they're uncomfortable with that level of feelings, they can often jump to some form of distraction. Like, I often see women dating too quickly because they want to be distracted, they want to feel something different than all of that grief. But it kind of slows the process down in a way, if you, if you try to skip over some of it
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:39):
Yeah. Or sometimes it's so unprocessed, so it kind of gets stuck. Yeah.
Oona Metz, LICSW (21:43):
Yeah. Or if people aren't able to do the letting go, you know, it can, it can end up with people feeling pretty bitter. And I think it's good for people to feel angry and express their anger absolutely. And use their anger as a fuel to kind of fuel they're moving on. But I think getting stuck in anger often leads to bitterness, and that doesn't really do anybody any good
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (22:10):
Right. Yeah. Well then oftentimes it is hard to move on because the focus is so much as you're kind of saying in the rear view mirror is kind of the main focus rather than looking ahead. And being able to have some of one's own agency. So I'm interested in this piece with the roller coaster. Do you find, you know, what are the differences you find when somebody was initiating it themselves or somebody who maybe had it initiated upon themselves? And you were describing earlier how, you know, oftentimes the person that does initiate it, you know, they've had maybe these, all these experiences of the criticism or so on and have that heartbreak or in a EFT, they call it oftentimes the burnt out pursuer, who's been trying and trying so hard and not able to reach their partner until they just kind of detach essentially that it's to protect themselves. Those are the hardest situations to get back from if the couple hasn't ended yet, because the person's trying to protect themselves their pain.
Oona Metz, LICSW (23:25):
Yeah. I think if your spouse is the one who's initiated the divorce, I think oftentimes those rollercoaster feelings will be even more intense. I think the the biggest difference, and especially if it comes abruptly, it's one thing if, you know, you're in couples therapy for a couple years, or you know, a decade and you've been talking and trying to make it better and it hasn't been working, but, you know, I've seen plenty of women where they get a text message after 30 years of marriage that their spouse is out, you know, is gone, is leaving or it just comes completely out of the blue, or it's a discovery of an affair and the spouse says, you know, okay yeah, you're right. You caught me, but I'm not interested in continuing and I think that will make the rollercoaster highs and lows that much more intense.
Oona Metz, LICSW (24:29):
I think the one thing that really distinguishes when somebody is the initiator is that I find that those people oftentimes have and feel a lot of shame and guilt about their decision. And I think especially for women, we're really socialized to keep the family together, to do anything. It is to be a good parent, to be a good wife, to keep that family going. And so I think that it can be very hard to initiate divorce. And I think people often feel a tremendous amount of guilt when they do. And one of the things, go ahead--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:10):
What? Oh, no, no, you go,--
Oona Metz, LICSW (25:12):
--Oh, I was just going to say, one of the things that I talk to women about a lot that helps with the guilt piece is to really talk about, they may have initiated a divorce, but to think about whether or not their spouse has been actively participating in the marriage or not. And oftentimes what's happened is that the marriage has kind of, has been over for a while. Right. And either they've both stopped trying or the spouse has stopped trying. But the woman in my case, because I just work with women, the women are the ones who have to kind of bear the brunt of initiating the divorce. 70% of divorces in heterosexual marriages are initiated by women.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (26:05):
Oh, really? Didn't know that.
Oona Metz, LICSW (26:07):
70%. Yeah. And I think that's part of the reason why sometimes I think women are kind of put in the position to initiate a divorce of a marriage that's already over. You know, that's been kind of dead in the water for a while.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (26:26):
Well, it makes sense too because you know, as men tend to be the withdrawers in the relationship that it might be disconnected and like you're saying, not participating and, but not necessarily going to pull the trigger and say like, Hey, we're, we're done. This is ending. And just kind of going along, bearing it until the partner finally burns out and decides that I need to move on.
Oona Metz, LICSW (26:51):
Yep. I mean, there's also that research from Harvard that really shows how much marriage benefits men. Both financially health wise and mental health wise. And so I think men are less likely to leave a marriage because I think there are a lot of benefits that come for that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (27:12):
Yeah, definitely. Well and you mentioned the role of shame and I think for both folks in the marriage, I mean oftentimes I know a number of people feel like I failed or we failed at the marriage. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that because I think, and you were mentioning too, the identity too, like, of now being a single person or single parent, you know, that that can be really a huge shift for folks.
Oona Metz, LICSW (27:41):
Yeah. I mean, I think language really shapes culture and culture shapes language. And I'm really passionate about reducing shame and stigma related to divorce. And so, you know, I think we've done a pretty good job of getting rid of words like broken. You know, it comes from a broken home. I think that seems pretty outdated. And failure is the next one that I think we need to really work on getting rid of. Because I think, you know, we have this idea that marriage, it's funny, we have this idea that marriage should last forever. Right. And those are the marital vows of until death do us part. And it's a bit of a weird expectation, especially if you're, you know, 25 years old that you're going to meet somebody and decide that you're going to be with that person for the next, you know, 70 years and neither of you are going to change.
Oona Metz, LICSW (28:44):
And both of you are going to communicate in such a way that, you know, you keep things rolling. I mean, we don't have that with any other institution. We don't expect somebody at 25 to move into an apartment and stay there until death do them part or to get a job at, you know, in the old days, maybe you'd get a job down at the factory and stay there for your entire career. But these days we don't have that expectation anymore. So I think as the therapist helping people to understand that hopefully they did everything they could to try to save their marriage, that their marriage is not a failure. There were good things. You know, it's rare that there's a marriage that's all bad all the time. I mean, almost every marriage has lots and lots of good parts to it. So kind of reframing that as there were a lot of good things that happened, and now you need to restructure your family. So I used-- I like to use the word restructuring rather than your marriage was a failure.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (29:50):
Of course. Yeah. I've heard people use too, like kind of outgrowing, like you're saying, the example of the apartment. Like if you have an apartment to a house, it doesn't mean you failed at the apartment,
Oona Metz, LICSW (30:01):
It's not a failure. Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:03):
It just wasn't the fit for what you needed at the time in your life. And so you needed to, you know, kind of outgrow that or move into a different area.
Oona Metz, LICSW (30:16):
Yeah, we're really trying to change the term custody, which really has its roots in slavery and it really refers to ownership. And so a lot of people in divorce professional world are trying to change that terminology to parenting time or shared parenting time which I think is a much more accurate description and doesn't indicate, you know, that you own your kids in some way.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:50):
Exactly. Well and I don't know what it's like I, where are you located?
Oona Metz, LICSW (30:56):
In Boston, right outside of Boston.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (30:59):
And I know that over time things have changed where it was oftentimes the mother who was getting the majority of the parenting time, although I know at least in this area in the Bay Area, that there's oftentimes more a tendency for 50/50. I don't know what it's like over in that part of the country.
Oona Metz, LICSW (31:19):
Yeah. It's definitely 50/50 is kind of the standard in this part of the country, unless there is a serious reason why it shouldn't be that way. And I think to just piggyback on that point, I think one of the things for therapists to know if you're working with somebody who is getting divorced, is that the laws about divorce are different in every state. So there's no federal law or policy about divorce. It's different in every state. And you were saying before, you know, encouraging people to get consultations, I think that's really helpful. I think there's some, there's really some danger in therapists recommending certain, like specific lawyers to clients or even specific mediators. Unless you really know the ins and outs of everything about your client and their finances and their kids and you know, the ins and outs of the lawyer that you are recommending.
Oona Metz, LICSW (32:31):
Otherwise, I would really encourage therapists to stay away from recommending a certain lawyer. I would really recommend that they, the client, do a lot of research in a lot of different areas. But I mean I have seen people go to lawyers and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a divorce that was totally unnecessary. And you don't, you don't want to be the person who's recommended that your client go and spend and end up spending $300,000 on a divorce that, you know, could have paid for their kids' college instead of for the lawyers' yacht, you know.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (33:13):
Well, and I oftentimes recommend people get consultation from a collaborative divorce lawyer since their kind of positioning is to basically work with the other lawyer to, you know, kind of have the most in help the family come out of it as unscathed as they can. But they don't necessarily need to even go and do that work with that person, you know, a collaborative divorce. because that is a very lengthy process. This person can just even recommend, you know, kind of, Hey, do the paperwork yourself, it seems like based on the situation but sometimes another lawyer that's not collaborative, might just be like focus on how to get all you can from the other side and more kind litigation and can exacerbate the problems.
Oona Metz, LICSW (34:02):
Exactly. And there are some cases where I think, you know, people do need a litigator. You know there's a lot of deception or, you know, if the person that you're divorcing is somebody that you really, really can't trust and you think going to deceive you, especially if there's a big power imbalance, then it's important to hire a different kind of lawyer. And, you know, in the book, I do go over all the different kinds, the mediation, the collaborative law, and the litigation. I also really suggest that people don't fill out the paperwork on their own without any kind of help. Unless, the only case where I would say you can do a kitchen table divorce is if you have no kids and you have no assets. If you're, if you are like, okay, I'm going to get the couch and you're going to get the blender, then that's fine. You can do it that way. but if you have a home together, if you have any assets together, if there's any big difference in the amount of money that you make, you know--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:15):
--I think that's where the consultation comes in too, that's guiding you because the lawyers don't even have to interact if like you're getting good. They see like, okay, you guys are sorting it out yourself and it can be much less. But definitely having somebody that's going over your rights that knows more than you do.You know and you can even just hire a lawyer for collaboration for a few hours.
Oona Metz, LICSW (35:41):
That's right--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:43):
--Half an hour kind of thing to check it out so that you don't put yourself in a bad position.
Oona Metz, LICSW (35:49):
Exactly. Definitely.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:52):
So there's the shame aspect of it. And then, you know, the flip side of shame is blame. And I know you're talking about a lot of the anger, and I think oftentimes that's where a lot of it comes in. Even like you're saying, the person that initiates there might be a lot of anger because like, you know, feeling like the other person pushed me to this point and I had to do that whatever it might be. So kind of dealing with that shame through anger and sometimes flip-flopping back and forth.
Oona Metz, LICSW (36:21):
So I think in the beginning stages, when your client comes in and is very angry and might be very blaming of their spouse, I think that's a moment to just be with them. Not to try to help them see the other side or help them see their part. Like they may need to stay in that stage for quite some time before they're able to see what their part is or why they chose that person or why they stayed so long, or why, you know, to be more self-reflective. they often need to kind of go through that phase first of, oh my God, I can't believe this person did that to me, and I can't believe I'm so angry.
Oona Metz, LICSW (37:27):
And, you know, so I think sitting with that for a while can be sometimes hard as a therapist if you, especially if you have a history with this client and you're like, well, I actually think this is more of a two-way street than what you're describing but they may not be able to see it in the beginning. And so I think just really aligning with them until they, again, until their central nervous system has calmed down enough that they're able to do some more self-reflection and understand that this is, you know, every marriage is a two-way street. And I don't believe that every marriage, you know, every marriage problem is 50/50. But it's also not 0/10-- you know, 0/100 either.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:09):
Yeah. And kind of in a motivational interviewing view, if the therapist takes one side of the ambivalence, they're just going to list the other side from the client. So needing to go to that dark place with them and be with them and reflect can also create space for that other side to come.
Oona Metz, LICSW (38:27):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (38:30):
So then there's the mending piece, which you were talking about, and you know, that renegotiating of boundaries. And I was thinking too, you were talking about some of the people in a domestic violence situation or so on, were once kind of getting out then maybe making other changes around their job or so on. And I imagine too, having had the experience of maybe getting out or moving on or things shifting, there might be a feeling of making changes elsewhere in one's life where I'm realizing like, okay, I was able to make this change that maybe there's that opportunity to also take this other risk and make this change in my life.
Oona Metz, LICSW (39:13):
Yeah, I often see a lot of, relationships getting renegotiated during a divorce and, you know, during, and post divorce because I think that people who've been through a divorce, or people who haven't been through a divorce thinks that, the relationship with your spouse is the one that's going to change. But I think that for people who've been through a divorce, they really understand that nearly all of their relationships change during a divorce and need to be re renegotiated. So I mean, your relationship with your family members, with your in-laws . You know, with friends, especially with other couple friends. If you have friends, if you were friends as a couple with other couple friends, sometimes those couple friends don't want to hang out with you anymore. Your relationship with your kids changes. So there's a lot of change that happens.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:12):
And what a great resource to have a group of other folks that are going through this change together to kind of know like, okay, this is quote unquote normal that the things we're going through this isn't because I'm a pariah or something like that and it might be as well as, yes, I think having support of course is so important because, you know, we, we really need to be able to turn to others and begin to have more of that connection support when you're losing such a big piece of support or whatever might have been support prior you thought was support.
Oona Metz, LICSW (40:51):
Yeah exactly. The groups have been incredibly good for that. I think so many times women come to me and they say, how is it possible that 50% of marriages end in divorce and I don't know anyone else going through it? So they really feel so relieved to step into the room and into the group and see that there's other women there who, you know, are going through really very similar situation. And, you know, I always say like, every marriage is unique, every divorce is unique, but there's so many kinds of through lines.
Oona Metz, LICSW (41:26):
There's so many themes, there's so many feelings that really connect them to each other that are so similar. And so they really feel like they're not alone when they're in that room. And I think it also helps them to feel like, because sometimes they'll say, well, I have so many good friends and family members, but I don't want to burn them out by talking to them about this all the time. And if they know the divorce is, I mean, if they know the group is coming on Tuesday, you know, then if something happens over the weekend, they're more able to hold it until Tuesday until the group, rather than calling all of their friends and, and burning out all of their friends over the weekend. So yeah, it's been really helpful.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:10):
Well, I'm curious too, I don't know if there's a certain age that the kids are that's in relationship. I know that in one situation somebody was going through a divorce and their kids were in kindergarten and another parent told them like, Hey, don't worry, once you get to middle school, there's going to be more parents that are going through this divorce or something--
Oona Metz, LICSW (42:31):
Right. That's true.--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:33):
--because they were feeling like they were the only ones that were going to do this. I don't know if you know of any research on that or so on
Oona Metz, LICSW (42:41):
The fastest rising cohort of people who are getting divorced right now is people over 50. The rate of people getting divorced over 50 has doubled in the last couple decades, and the rate for people over 65 has actually tripled.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:57):
Oh, wow.
Oona Metz, LICSW (42:58):
So what I see a lot of is people who get divorced, often when their children have gone to college or are about to go to college. Like, I'll often see a woman who's got a kid who's, you know, maybe a junior or a senior in high school, and then one or two who are already in college or just beyond. That seems to be a time where a lot of people are getting divorced.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:26):
Definitely. And I think another piece that might be important for therapists to know too is that, you know, also connecting folks if they do have children, one, having a co-parenting counselor can be helpful as they're kind of figuring what the the parenting time and the expectations and how holidays are going to go and so on. Particularly co-parenting, having somebody that's not doing therapy. because I know sometimes therapists are kind of trying to do like relationship work between the parents rather than kind of more like, hey, here's what's best for the kids. You know, and not necessarily worrying as much about the rapport alliance with each person, but more kind of getting that perspective, not quite a mediator, but in that realm because I've, you know, talked to other clinicians where their clients have gotten stuck with a therapist who's trying to keep working on improving the relationship between the ex then they're kind of are in a situation where they should not have to be that involved and having a good working relationship, but not necessarily kind of working through all their history or things like that or such.
Oona Metz, LICSW (44:43):
Yeah. It's a very special skillset because, you know, the work of figuring out the parenting plan has to happen quickly. You can't kind of wait for a couple of years until everybody calms down to do that. And yet people are so heated, I think in the moment right in as they're going through or right post-divorce, that it's very hard to kind of just be thinking very succinctly and concretely about what it is the kids need, you know, at that point. So it is a really-- I think it takes a lot of skill as a therapist to kind of leave the feeling states behind to leave the-- trying to improve their relationship piece behind and just, you know, really be focused on, okay, what's going to be best for these kids? How do we work this out? Right. And it may be that the couples, the original couples therapists can't do that work. It may be too triggering to walk into that room yet again.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (45:50):
Yeah. I heard one person describe it as, you know, we're, we're not unpacking your baggage, we're basically trying to get your baggage across the street over to this other side.
Oona Metz, LICSW (45:59):
Right, yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:01):
And then that letting go piece, I think that, you know, you're mentioning how spouse, you know, all these aspects and that also I think helping therapists understand that this is a process, you know? So maybe really digging in, I don't want to leave my house, that's the kids' house, my kids grew up, but they can't afford it. Or they're, you know. It's again, that process that they might have to go through to get to it, and the therapist being able to hold the person as they kind of move through that rather than maybe trying to force them to kind of shift quickly if they're not there.
Oona Metz, LICSW (46:42):
Right. And again, kind of knowing where that line is between somebody really needs to grieve, right. They really need to grieve this marriage, but where is the line between their grieving and they're stuck
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:59):
Yes.
Oona Metz, LICSW (47:00):
Right. In the process and unable to let go. And I think really also as a therapist being able to celebrate like the moments of letting go, right? Like, it's not going to call them all at once. It's not going to be like they're focused on their divorce or their ex on a Tuesday, and then on Wednesday they let go completely. So how can they work with the client to think about, like, is there a way to not answer every text, you know, immediately? Can you leave some time? You know, can you work on leaving 30 seconds before you answer the text? Can you work on leaving a minute now, can you work on leaving five minutes?
Oona Metz, LICSW (47:41):
You know, I love the work of Bill Eddie. Are you familiar with him? He has a lot of great books and, one of them is, or maybe a couple of them are focused on divorce. He has this whole model of communication in a high conflict relationship. And, it's called the Biff model. It stands for brief, informative, friendly, and firm. So when your ex, you know, writes to you and says, you know, I can't believe you, you're such a jerk, and why would you do that? And I want the kids on Tuesday because you had them last Tuesday, and you know, you're this and that, and this and that about being able to not engage in all of that, all of those kind of insults and, being able to just be brief, informative, friendly, and firm. So we talk a lot about that in the groups and how it's hard to do at first but really kind of getting into that model of communication can be really helpful if you're in a high conflict situation.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (48:53):
Yeah, definitely. Because oftentimes just kind of going back and forth, its not going to get anywhere. And it's solving them is going to muddy the waters and get triggered. Yeah and I think this aspect of the letting go, you know, piece too is, you know, a lot of people, the way that they imagine their divorce is going to be in the beginning and their life is going to be, is very different sometimes, especially when the kids, I've had clients who are like, oh, we're going to have family dinner twice a week and we're going to do these, and then, you know, as time goes on, they realize they need that time and that separation, the kids are adjusting. I like the book, Putting Kids First In Divorce, which kind of helps parents and has some nice scripts to help parents kind of talk about the divorce to the children when they announce it at various developmental age levels and so on. I think for therapists a great resource too to help folks as they're beginning to kind of make that transition.
Oona Metz, LICSW (49:59):
Absolutely. Yeah, I've got two chapters in my book that are devoted specifically to kids, are kind of sprinkled throughout, but there's two chapters that are specifically about kids. And one, also a whole section about telling the kids. So, and I really recommend to people, and I think this is where the guilt comes into play, sometimes people feel so guilty, and then they say to their kids, “You know, don't worry, we're always going to have Christmas together,” or “We'll still vacation together.”
Oona Metz, LICSW (50:31):
And I say to them like, please do not promise your kids anything. The only thing you're allowed to promise your kids is that you'll always love them and you'll always be their parent. That's it. Because you don't know anything else about the future. You cannot promise them anything else about the future. You know, you just don't know. And, and you may, it's not that you're lying. You may believe it in your heart of hearts . That you're always going to have Christmas together or you're always going to vacation together, but things shift and change, and that may not always be true, and you just don't want to be in that position where the kids say, but you promised, you know?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (51:08):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also reminding parents too, that it's the attachment relationship that they have with the kids and the attachment relationship in the two different homes. If they're in two homes, that's really helped them through this. And, you know, it can be hard and rocky, but they'll get through it. I had one that said, you know, she was probably more into this moving on stage where she was kind of saying,I feel like I'm a better mother now because I have all that time separately to recharge to like all the chores done, do my work. So I'm much more present when I'm with my kids than I was even when we were married.
Oona Metz, LICSW (51:55):
I hear that a lot. Well, also, I think being in an unhealthy marriage takes a lot of energy and strain and it's very stressful. And kids pick up on that, you know? Whether it's a marriage that's too hot, or a marriage that's too cold, you know, I always say there's these temperature problems that marriages have. Right. They can be too hot with too much yelling and conflict or too cold where everything just is shut down and quiet and tense. Yeah. but kids pick up on both of those.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (52:27):
Exactly. Definitely. Well, this is great. So I love this model, with the five phases, and I think that's really helpful both for the clients as well as for therapists to kind of see where people are in their process. And I mean, particularly that rollercoaster phase, I think that that's really a tough phase and it's, you know, as a therapist, if you're a newer therapist or maybe you haven't had clients going through this before, it probably could be alarming. And you staying with your client as they're going through this rollercoaster because sometimes some quick breathing skills or a little cognitive therapy or something is not going to fix all that quickly. It's going to be a process and kind of being able to be with the client while they process that.
Oona Metz, LICSW (53:12):
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (53:13):
Any last pieces that you want to share with therapists that are working in this field or so on that would be important?
Oona Metz, LICSW (53:23):
Well, one thing I just wanted to share is that I have a ton of free resources on my website, which is oonametz.com. So, I've been on a lot of other podcasts as well. and I have a lot of articles there. I have a Psychology Today blog on divorce. And I have a couple of articles in Psychotherapy Networker. I'll be at the American Group Psychotherapy Association Conference in New York in March and actually leading a two day long institute for therapists who are getting divorced.
Oona Metz, LICSW (53:57):
So to kind of reflect on their own process there. So, you know, I really encourage people to stay in touch, and to certainly use my website for resources or send your client there. I'm only licensed in Massachusetts, so I don't see clients outside of Massachusetts, but I do also have a training program for therapists who want to learn how to lead the groups that I do. I ended up with 60 people on a waiting list for my divorce support groups. And so I finally decided to start a training program and train other people. So we now have more groups in Massachusetts, and then groups in Texas and New York City as well. And, I'll be doing more training this year coming up too.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (54:55):
That's perfect. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your time today, and it is really great and looking forward to check out the book and, definitely, I'm so glad it came out just last week, so something a lot lined up. It's wonderful. Thanks for taking the time.
Oona Metz, LICSW (55:10):
Thank you so much, Keith. It's been really wonderful talking to you. Okay,
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (55:14):
Bye-bye.
Oona Metz, LICSW (55:15):
Bye bye.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (55:17):
Thank you for joining us today. If you'd like to receive continuing education credits for the podcast you just listened to, please go to therapyonthecuttingedge.com and click on the link for CE. Our podcast is brought to you by the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, where we provide trainings for therapists in evidence-based models through live and online workshops, on-demand workshops, consultation groups, and online one-way mirror trainings. To learn more about our trainings and treatment for children, adolescents, families, couples, and individual adults, with our licensed experienced therapists in-person in the Bay Area, or throughout California online, and our employment opportunities, go to sfiap.com. To learn more about our associateships and psych assistantships and low fee treatment through our nonprofit Bay Area Community Counseling and Family Institute of Berkeley, go to sf-bacc.org and familyinstituteofberkeley.com. If you'd like to support therapy for those in financial need and training and evidence-based treatments, you can donate by going to BACC’s website at sfbacc.org. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit so all donations are tax deductible. Also, we really appreciate your feedback. If you have something you're interested in, something that's on the cutting edge of the field of psychotherapy, and you think therapists out there should know about it, send us an email. We're always looking for advancements in the field of psychotherapy to create lasting change for our clients.