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Patricia Papernow, EdD - Guest
Patricia Papernow, EdD is well known for her books Surviving and Thriving in Stepfamily Relationships, Becoming a Stepfamily, and, with Karen Bonnell, The Stepfamily Handbook From Dating, to Getting Serious to Forming a “Blended Family,” as well as the author of dozens of articles and book chapters about “blended families.” Dr. Papernow is a systems and trauma-trained clinician with a special focus on working with families through the divorce and recoupling process. She is a renowned educator teaching about stepfamilies all over the U.S. and the world. She is also the recipient of the 2017 award for Distinguished Contribution to Family Psychology from APA (American Psychological Association). |
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W. Keith Sutton, Psy.D. - Host
Dr. Sutton has always had an interest in learning from multiple theoretical perspectives, and keeping up to date on innovations and integrations. He is interested in the development of ideas, and using research to show effectiveness in treatment and refine treatments. In 2009 he started the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, providing a one-way mirror training in family therapy with James Keim, LCSW. Next, he added a trainer and one-way mirror training in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and an additional trainer and mirror in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. The participants enjoyed analyzing cases, keeping each other up to date on research, and discussing what they were learning. This focus on integrating and evolving their approaches to helping children, adolescents, families, couples, and individuals lead to the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy's training program for therapists, and its group practice of like-minded clinicians who were dedicated to learning, innovating, and advancing the field of psychotherapy. Our podcast, Therapy on the Cutting Edge, is an extension of this wish to learn, integrate, stay up to date, and share this passion for the advancement of the field with other practitioners. |
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (00:24):
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including Family Systems, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, Motivational Interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma; and our center for ADHD and Oppositional & Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:31):
In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible. Today I'll be speaking to Patricia Papow, EDD, who is a psychologist and well-known for her books, surviving and thriving in stepfamily relationships becoming a Stepfamily, and with her co-author, Karen Bonnel, the Stepfamily Handbook from Dating to Getting Serious to forming a blended family, as well as the author of dozens of articles and book chapters about blended families.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (02:42):
Dr. Papow is a systems and trauma trained clinician with a special focus in working with families through divorce and recoupling processes. She's a renowned educator teaching about stepfamilies all over the United States in the world, and she's a recipient of the 2017 Award for distinguished contribution to family Psychology from the American Psychological Association. Let's listen to the interview.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:03):
Hi, Patricia. Welcome.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (03:05):
Glad to be here.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:07):
Great. Thanks for joining me. So, let’s see. I went to a conference some years ago through the Association of Family Therapists in Northern California, in the Bay Area here, and you did a weekend conference on your work with stepfamilies. I got really interested in that topic and read your first book—or the book—on Surviving and Thriving in Stepfamily Relationships and really enjoyed it. And I’ve also been using your Stepfamily Handbook that came out a couple years ago as well. So thanks for joining. I’d love to hear more about your work and also just hear about your kind of, you know, your progression of your career and your thinking and how you got to thinking about what you’re working on now.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (03:55):
Well, I’m really glad to be here because stepfamilies are a fundamentally different kind of family form, and it’s still not taught. It needs to really be a basic part of every clinician’s training, and it’s not. Two percent of Americans have a close family relationship, and it doesn’t go like a first-time family.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (04:16):
Yeah. What percent was that?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (04:17):
It doesn’t go like a first-time family. Sure. If you’re trying to make it like one, you’re failing and feeling like you’re failing, and things go terribly, terribly wrong. It’s difficult enough knowing—having a good map. But if you are, it’d be like trying to drive around New York City with a map of Indiana. It just makes quite a mess. So I’m glad to be here.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (04:43):
Great. And what percentage were you saying of families are second time?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (04:46):
Forty-two percent of Americans have a close stepfamily relationship.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (04:52):
Oh, wow. A huge, huge amount.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (04:56):
Yeah. Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (04:59):
You asked me how I got into this. Yeah. In my first marriage, my husband had two kids. They were five and nine. And a few years later, it was time to do my dissertation. I was in a doctoral program. I was allowed to do a qualitative dissertation. I didn’t have to do numbers. I could interview people. And I could see that things were changing in my stepfamily. And it was probably that the kids
were getting older—eight and whatever plus three is—but there was something shifting, something more fundamental. So I did my dissertation on stages of development and becoming a stepfamily. And I got hooked. And that was over 40 years ago. And I’m still learning, because there’s so much to learn. And every new modality that I’ve learned, I’ve also folded into this work.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (05:57):
Yeah. And I’d love to hear too, because I know you integrate a number of different approaches. I think you’ve got family systems work that you’re doing, and I think also—I forget—was it emotionally focused couple therapy or AEDP or both, or, yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (06:12):
Well, I’m an integrator. I was actually originally trained in Gestalt therapy, which gave me really good grounding in the quality of contact and connection. And is it there and isn’t it? And what breaks it and what makes it—that was a wonderful foundation for me. And now I have a lot of trauma training. I have EMDR training. I have a smattering of EFT and AEDP. The modality I mostly work in now is internal family systems.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (06:44):
Oh, yes.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (06:47):
But I like to weave together all of the things that I know. And I started in this field doing psychoeducation. I ran a community mental health organization that provided mental health skills training for people, like nurses and teachers. And so I started with psycho ed, so training for trainers and training. Good, good. Experiential training is also part of my sort of solid base. And there’s a lot of psychoeducation that goes on in good stepfamily work.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (07:19):
Definitely. One of the things I really love about your book is how organized it is and really kind of looking at multiple levels, like on a psychoeducation level, on a systemic level, on an individual kind of level. And it’s just very—I love how you kind of break it down into the different major issues that come up for families and just kind of those multiple levels, from down kind of to the deeper interpersonal to the larger kind of general psychoeducation.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (07:50):
That’s great to hear. I don’t tire of hearing that, that book, Surviving and Thriving in Stepfamily Relationships, is helpful to people. That’s why I wrote it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (07:58):
Yeah. Yeah. I was giving it to even clients before you wrote your other book.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (08:02):
I wrote it for both actual clinicians and stepfamily members. The last book, Stepfamily Handbook, is written only for the public. So it’s easier, but there’s a lot more detailed information in Surviving and Thriving that stepfamily members like to read. And I do always like to ask people—I have a kid with language-based learning disabilities—so I always ask, do you like to read?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (08:26):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (08:27):
People don’t like to read books. That book’s a little thick. And also, if people don’t like to read, my website, stepfamilyrelationships.com, has a bunch of videos and a bunch of radio interviews, and those can be much more accessible for some people to get some good information.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (08:46):
Perfect. Great. So tell me about—yeah—how did you get from kind of working in the community settings and the psychoeducation piece to where you are now?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (08:58):
Well, how did I—man—I started my running event program, and then I went back to school and got my degree to become a psychologist. And as I said, my dissertation was on stepfamilies, and it’s been my sort of area of expertise ever since then. I have the things that I do well and love, love to do. Yeah. But it’s one area that I really think is just terribly important to teach about because there’s so much for clinicians to know about what works and what does not work in becoming and meeting the significant challenges of becoming a stepfamily.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (09:42):
Yeah. Yeah. And I know that what really struck me with your book is how there are such significant differences between a first-time family and a stepfamily. And that the couple, when getting into a relationship before there are kids involved, oftentimes have that time to attach and develop that attachment. And also what you talk about is finding common ground. You know, I don’t remember the example you would use, but I thought about this—you know, like the way they put their dishes in the dishwasher when you move in together versus the way that you do, and kind of figuring out all those little pieces that happen over time as a relationship progresses and kind of get solidified before kids come into the relationship.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (10:32):
That’s right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (10:33):
In many families, yeah. But in a stepfamily, the kids are already there. We’re all actually navigating all of that, and there’s not necessarily as much of a secure base.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (10:43):
The kids are not only already there, but the strong attachment is between the parent and child or children. And the understanding about everything from what’s too much to spend on a pair of sneakers to what’s allowed noise to, in my family, is it okay to eat standing in front of the refrigerator—you know, those understandings about how we do things are established between the parent and children. And the deep attachment is between parent and children, including a parent outside the household. And stepparents come in as an outsider to all of that. And that’s one of the things—I talk about five challenges. That is one of the first challenges: that you come together expecting blending.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (11:34):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (11:35):
And I notice, if you look at my work, I always use the language “blended family,” because it’s the language that we use. However, I always put quotes around it. It sets up an expectation that we’ll come right together like a first-time family. That’s the longing that we all have. However, as soon as the whole family is together, the parent and child have a connection; the stepparent is an outsider. So, you know, little Janie got off the bus and she made the soccer team, or she didn’t make the soccer team. She bursts in through the door. The person she wants to speak to is her parent. Yeah. Now, the stepparent may have just gotten his or her sweetie into a conversation, just the two of them, because they don’t have any time alone, as you said earlier, and they’re having a conversation. But what does a parent do?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (12:28):
The child bursts in saying, “Daddy, daddy, daddy.” What does a good parent do? You turn to your child. In a first time family, it would be Daddy, mommy, daddy, mommy. And both parents would turn, or if, you know, daddy turned, mommy, mommy's still connected in a step family. If daddy turns stepparent is left out. They get dropped or they feel dropped and they are dropped. You know, they're Stephen Porges. The neurobiologist has another thing that I've dipped into is interpersonal neurobiology says that we are wired for the people close to us to turn towards us. And when they turn away, it's deeply upsetting. And the other thing that's very hard is the stepparent is in that stuck outsider position. The parent's in a stuck insider position. If I turn to my kid, my sweetie is upset. If I turn to my sweetie, my kid feels left.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (13:30):
And when a parent and the stepparent go to talk about it, they're sitting in fundamentally different positions, both of them painful. So much easier to empathize when you both see the same thing. Yeah. But when you are sitting, your pain creates a division between you. Empathy is very challenging. And one of the things that we often have to do for step couples is first just give them a psycho ed. Yeah. You are arguing over this, not because you don't love each other, but because when Janie ran into the house, you, George, are the parent, and she turned to you, and you Emily were the stepparent. And you got left and you're arguing not because you don't love each other, but because you live in a stepfamily and structurally one of you is a stuck insider. That would be you, Joe. And one of you is a stuck outsider. And that would be you, Emily. And let me see if I can help you. That's the psychoeducation level. Interpersonal levels. Let me see if I can help you really hear each other, because you both need each other's empathy, and it's hard to get and hard to give.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:52):
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And the, and I know you talk about that the, there's the, the biological parent is that insider, the stepparent or the partner ends up being the outsider and then the kids end up kind of also, you know, moving in and out of that outside position going
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (15:11):
That's true.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:12):
Left out of--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (15:13):
Then, I talk about, yeah. I'll back up and say that I talk about five challenges that are specific to stepfamily. And one is that the couple is stuck in an insider and outsider position. The second is that kids experience a stepfamily very, very differently from a first time family. So oftentimes the adults are thrilled and the kids are really struggling. The third is that parenting tasks divide parents and stepparents. Parents everywhere want more boundaries and limits on what their kids and parents everywhere want more love and understanding for their kids. The fourth challenge is how do we build a family culture while we respect both cultures that already exist and sometimes it's more than two. And the fifth challenge last, but not least, is we have another parent, at least one other parent and an ex spouse and an ex spouse relationship that we have to manage. The household does not start and stop at our front door, even if that person has died.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:19):
Definitely.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (16:19):
Back to your question about kids. Kids struggle step by step, families with losses and loyalty bind and change. So losses for the adults, the new relationship is a wonderful gift. I mean, to find love when you've it's wonderful for kids. It's often a sense of loss and it's very hard for adults to get this. But so the example I often give is, imagine you have a really good buddy and both of you are single and you've been hanging out for a while and your buddy finds a new sweetheart. All go to lunch together. You're sitting at lunch and your buddy and his or her new sweetheart are eyeing each other. How do you feel? You're glad for them, but how do you feel?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (17:08):
Yeah. It's a bit uncomfortable.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (17:10):
Exactly. And do you really want to watch them kiss or hug? No. So kids need, you know, it's one thing if you're losing a buddy, kids need their parents and there's not another parent to turn to. And you know, adults are as gaga when they fall in love as any kid. Social media especially. You see a parent on their phone texting their love. Parent child time. So one of the things we say in the Stepfamily handbook is separate them out, no texting while you're with your kids. Yeah. So the first thing is losses. The second thing is loyalty binds. If I care about my stepparent I am disloyal to my parents, my other parents outside the household. And this is especially often between mothers and stepmothers. Yeah. And it seems to be almost genetic even when it's collaborative. But if there's tension, it's unbearable for kids. It often makes it very, very hard for kids to move towards a stepparent. Yeah. And the third thing is change. The adults want to rush forward. And my second marriage, we certainly rushed, we would've been a lot even faster, except my kid needed financial aid to go to college. Check that marriage box. You lose financial aid. So we waited six years. Right. We wouldn't have waited otherwise. And by the time we got married, the kids were ready, but we would've rushed it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (18:46):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (18:47):
So kids and the higher the rate of change, the lower kids' wellbeing.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (18:51):
Hmm.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (18:52):
So that's kids.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (18:54):
Yeah. And to the, to that effect too, I know you're talking about how you put blended in quotes and, and you use the analogy of like making a smoothie and all that elements kind of mix it together, but it's more like a fruit salad where the individual kind of pieces are, are kind of together. And that's oftentimes, you know, experience that, that I've worked with with Stepfamilies. Is that Yeah. They're feeling great. They're so excited. Especially too, you know, not only is love exciting and wonderful and gaga, but then oftentimes they've usually come out of a really not great relationship or where they were in pain for a long time, or they lost their partner you know, to death or so on. So that it's even more, you know, intense to have this good thing. And there's a feeling of like, oh, great.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (19:35):
Now we'll all come together and like, you know, we'll, we'll, it'll be easier another, we'll have another adult there so we can parent the kids and somebody else will be there and or, or we've got more than one, you know, kids on either side, they're all going to get along and so on. And yeah. It just, you know, they're feeling like, I think you've talked about or written about is that we're going to be one big happy family and you're going to throw 'em all together and that's going to work. Versus all the catching up that the kids have to do where the parents are at because they're, you know it's, it's all new. It's all different. It's all confusing.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (20:12):
And the kids didn't choose.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:13):
Yeah, definitely.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (20:15):
The kids didn't choose. The adults did. Two sets of kids. Won't my kid be thrilled to have a brother his age? Well, maybe step kids, step siblings tend to be either much closer and much more distant, but maybe not. What if I said to you, I've just chosen Luke over here and you get to live with him and be close to him. You don't get to choose. You might not like that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:43):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (20:44):
You might not like that at all. And you've touched on something else, which is parenting. And this is one of, I have a bunch of what I call easy wrong terms. This is such an easy, wrong term for stepfamily members and for clinicians the research is clear. Parents need to retain the disciplinary role until, or unless kids have formed a trusting, caring relationship with their stepparent. At that point, stepparents can move slowly into a slightly more firm discipline.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (21:23):
However before that parents need to retain the disciplinary role. And part of the dilemma is, as I said earlier, stepparents everywhere want more limits and boundaries with their step kids. I've taught all over the world. I haven't been anywhere. That wasn't true. I mean, every now and then you get a harsh authoritarian parent and a stepparent who's more authoritative, warm, and calmly firm. And that's really nice because it means a stepparent is stepping in. This actually happened with my step kids that I could step in and say honey, I think you're being awfully harsh on your son. All he did was lose his shoes. You know, that really helped me make a relationship with my step kids. But that's the minority. It's usually that stepparents really want more discipline. And so often stepparents are told to step in and exercise your authority and parents should back you up. And it's disastrous. I had a string of three consults. This must happen to you. Sometimes three consults all the same. A teenage adolescent girl hospitalized, suicidal in every single case, stepdad had stepped into a harsh disciplinary role. Now the kid was a mess. And it was quite understandable why stepdad did this.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (22:50):
Sure.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (22:51):
A little different in each family, but it was backfiring terribly. And the kids—all three kids—fell apart. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:00):
And oftentimes a parent, they’re trying to help out in the way that they think, you know, makes sense and, you know, rationally, and you know, right—structures or whatever it might be. But oftentimes, especially if the relationship is tenuous sometimes between the kids and their own parents, sometimes it just exacerbates it, like you’re saying, really kind of inflames the situation.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (23:23):
Well, and oftentimes stepparents do need to help parents firm up--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (23:29):
But they need to do that behind closed doors and have input. Parents have final say on their own kids. And that means stepparents have to bite their tongue a lot, which is awfully difficult. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:42):
Super frustrating. Let’s--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (23:43):
Back up and talk a little bit about what helps these challenges, especially the first two. One of the things that helps is a lot of one-to-one time. Because that word blended would make you think that if we all spend time together, we’ll get closer. Well, it’s true—new stepfamilies need to play together. They need to do fun things together. And every time the whole family is together, there’s competition between the subsystems.
I’m talking to clinicians. I can talk about subsystems. If the couple is close, parent-child, the child is left out; the parent-child is close, the stepparent left out. And every time we’re all together, the parent-child relationship trumps the stepparent–stepchild relationship.
Creating some one-to-one time—some one-to-one time for the couple without kids present—where the stepparent feels the full attention of the parent and the parent doesn’t feel divided. One-to-one parent-child time, regular one-to-one parent-child time. And this includes older recoupling with adult kids. Adult kids need their parents too.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (24:57):
And one-to-one stepparent–stepchild time, doing something fun, kind of shoulder to shoulder. And some kids will be more available than others. When I say to stepparents, it is connection before correction. My friend said, relationships before rules. What can you connect about? What could you do together? You know, one of my stepsons taught me how to Twitter--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (25:24):
He taught me how to do it. And, you know, kids can often teach stepparents a lot about technology.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:30):
Yeah, definitely.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (25:31):
And I just had a stepparent who said, “Well, he plays online all the time. I’m not interested in online.” Well, could you go find out what interests him about it? Could you get him to tell you and show you? And could you pull up the part of you that could be interested?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:48):
Yeah. And I think definitely for a lot of families that ends up being a piece. Yes—connecting with the kids on what they’re interested in, even if they’re not so listening, that’s about Minecraft for 20 minutes or whatever, right? You know, some parents are like, “Oh, I don’t want to listen.” But again, it’s their world, and stepping into their world. And I think, as you’re saying, it’s even more important with stepparents, you know, because they don’t have that basis of relationship that the parent has had throughout their life.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (26:19):
You have to build a relationship.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (26:21):
I’ve thought about it and wondered too. I mean, the empathy sometimes I think that a parent ends up having for the kids because they’ve been there so long, because they have a little bit more of that perspective, also I think ends up making it—I don’t know—maybe that’s why they are a little less focused on the structure and those boundaries. They can more easily see exceptions and context. Whereas sometimes stepparents are a little more black and white, and it’s a little harder to make exceptions because they’re not having that kind of foundational attachment that the parent does.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (27:00):
I think you’re exactly right. You know, yeah, I care about my kids. I’ve got a heart connection with her. If she does something a little stupid or irritating, it’s not as irritating to me. I’ll bet if you wired me up, I wouldn’t get as upset. And it’s much more upsetting to the stepparent.
And if this is a kid who doesn’t ever say hello to you and she or he leaves a mess in the kitchen, how much more irritating is that? And parent and child have agreements about how things go.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (27:38):
I was glad to have my kid make her own meal and make a mess in the kitchen. Being a single parent for 10 years, she made a mess—that was the last thing I cared about. But, you know, if you’re the stepparent and you walk into this mess, it’s not the last thing you cared about. Yeah. Well, why didn’t you teach your kid to clean up?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (28:00):
Well, because it kind of ends up, I think, especially if partners are living together and maybe the kids aren’t there full time, it’s the stepparent’s space. And oftentimes they can feel encroached upon, whereas the parent might be more focused on the value of the cooking, and the stepparent might be more focused on the value of their space being respected.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (28:23):
Absolutely. I think you’ve got that exactly right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (28:26):
Yeah, and I think you’ve talked about this—that the stepparent and the biological parent almost inevitably end up polarizing each other. The harder one gets, the softer the other gets; the softer the other gets, the harder the other gets.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (28:41):
Exactly. And part of the dilemma is what kids need is authoritative parenting. We have a ton of research about this. Authoritative parenting is caring and warm and empathic, and it also sets moderately firm, developmentally appropriate limits and follows through. Authoritarian parenting is harsh and cold. It backfires in almost every culture when stepparents use it. And this includes cultures like Japanese culture and Latino culture, where authoritarian parenting is more valued. Authoritarian parenting by stepparents backfires. And parents get pulled to more permissive parenting. That actually happens sometimes in single parenting as well, just because it’s harder to hold limits when you’re parenting alone. And you’re exactly right—I call it the polarization polka. One of the major things you see often in step couples is that what kids need is not either authoritarian or permissive. What they need is authoritative parenting from the parent.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (29:54):
So kids aren’t getting their needs met for two reasons. One is they need authoritative parenting, not harsh or permissive parenting. And the other is that conflict is very bad for kids. You know, that’s the fifth challenge of ex-spouses. But conflict in the household is very hard for kids. It’s not whether it’s a single-parent family, a stepfamily, or a first-time family. The most robust predictor of children’s wellbeing is low conflict. High-conflict parenting is linked to kids with poor wellbeing. And divorced parents whose conflict is low tend to have kids with fairly good wellbeing. So when a parent and stepparent are fighting over parenting, that’s not good for kids. If you’re going to tangle, you’re probably going to do it behind closed doors.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (31:08):
If the kids hear it, go back and repair it. “I’m so sorry. You heard us be tense with each other. That was no fun. That must have been hard.” No explanation. Really acknowledging the kid.
And the same actually is true. This gets us to that fifth challenge around tension with the other household. If you can protect your kids from tension, it’s huge. It makes a big, big, big, big difference. If you cannot, then you need to repair it with kids. You need to say, “You just saw mommy and daddy, or daddy and daddy fight. I’m so sorry. That’s not good for kids. I’ll bet it feels terrible. I’m sorry.”
In a good divorce, the parents don’t fight. And notice I’m not blaming my partner, my ex-wife partner. I’m not saying, “Daddy picked a fight.” I’m saying in a good divorce the parents don’t fight. And I gotta--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:16):
That is neutral. Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (32:17):
Better language. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:21):
Well, and I have a question too about, you know, this oftentimes comes up. Somebody told me once that co-parenting is the ideal, parallel parenting is the norm. That most families are kind of doing their own thing. Yes, it would be ideal if all the rules and expectations were the same at each household, but that’s rarely the case because oftentimes people are creating their own systems in their home based on their personalities and such. So it ends up being parallel parenting, and kids adjust—well, just like moving from one house to school, and school having a different set of standards and expectations. And then to another house that may be different, that’s okay as long as it’s kind of consistent and there’s that sense.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (33:09):
But sometimes I’ve got a parent that is really struggling because they’re so frustrated about what’s going on in the other household and very preoccupied and kind of focused on changing what’s going on in the other household. I’m often trying to redirect them back to doing what they can in their household. Sometimes they get so focused on what’s happening in the other, they feel hopeless and then they end up not doing the things that they would like to be doing, the values that they’d like to be holding, and the structure on their own. Yeah. I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on this, or is that an issue that comes up?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (33:46):
It is an issue that comes up, and you’re exactly right. There is some research that’s somewhat comforting. That is, if you have one authoritative parent—one parent who’s steady and warm and empathic and sets developmentally appropriate limits—that makes a difference for kids, even if the other parent is a mess. Hmm. That’s important for parents to know.
There’s a wonderful book, Custody, Chaos, Personal Peace, about these kinds of issues. If it’s not life and death, if it doesn’t impact your kid in your house, oftentimes even if it does, you gotta let go.
Now what’s hard is when it does impact. You know, I just consulted in a case where a very narcissistic, very drug-using, alcoholic ex-husband who likes a lot of control and wants custody of the kid and is lying, found a woman with two teens—not getting the kid to bed on time, badmouthing mom. It’s terribly difficult. Yeah. Difficult. So mom may need to say something about dad, but how do you say something that validates the kids’ experience without tightening the loyalty bind?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:17):
Sure. Like how do you help them process that in that experience?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (35:20):
Exactly. So, you know, in a good divorce, the parents don’t badmouth each other. “I’m sorry that you’re hearing badmouthing—that has to be really painful for you.” So it’s got three parts: in a good divorce, the parents don’t badmouth each other; the fact you are hearing badmouthing; and back to the kid, “That must be hard for you.”
Yes, you’re right. “Daddy drinks, he was drinking and driving. That must have been terrifying for you. Let’s figure out what to do.”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (35:59):
Let’s figure out what you can do. “No, I can’t believe he did it again. That was a terrible thing for him to do.” That increases the kid’s loyalty bind, number one, but neurobiologically, where’s my arousal level? It’s going up. Kids need help calming down, and they need to borrow our neurobiological system to calm themselves.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (36:24):
Yeah. So that’s co-regulation.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (36:26):
Exactly. Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (36:28):
Definitely. And I’ve thought about that too. Especially sometimes when I talk about parents going through divorce or couples ending, one of the big pieces, like you’re saying, is the decrease in conflict and also the attachment to the kids—kids being able to turn to the parents with their big emotions, and parents being able to be with them. Or sometimes I describe it as the rock in the ocean that the waves hit up against, rather than a set of waves smashing into each other.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (36:57):
Oh, that’s nice. I like that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (36:59):
Yeah. Because that piece, even though things in life are hard, if the kids can turn and sit and process those feelings and be with those feelings with the parents, oftentimes there’s that sense of--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (37:12):
It’s much better. And here’s one of the dilemmas: the kid says, “I hate my new stepmother.”Now I love your new stepmother. God forbid your new stepmother should have heard you said that. How easy for a parent to say, “Oh, she’s a nice person,”— Or, “I don’t want to hear you say bad things about her.”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (37:38):
Much harder for parents. This is another place where the two people are in such different positions, for parents to empathize across that difference—oh, take a breath, mom or dad. “Oh, sounds like you’re having a really hard time with your stepmom. Sounds like this is a lot of change in my experience.”
Many parents need help with this. So if you work with kids or with parents and kids, oftentimes you need to help kids find their voice. Lots of kids feel this and this and this. “Does that fit with you?” And then I meet with the parent and the kid and I set the parent up: your job is to hear the kid’s pain. Zero to 10—10 really hard, zero easy. How hard’s this going to be for you? If it’s really hard, let’s do some work before we meet. I’m really going to help the parents listen, and I call it joining.
The kid says, “I hate my stepmother.” Take a breath. Mom or dad, tell your kid what you do. Understand. “I know you love your daughter. You tell her what you do. Understand. I get that you’re really unhappy. Great.”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (38:59):
And with parents and kids, this goes one direction: from the kid to the parent. I think the family version of EEFT or EFT does this beautifully, just beautifully. But this is a place in stepfamilies where parents often need help really hearing their kids.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (39:19):
Definitely. Yeah. One of my earlier interviews with Guy Diamond, the developer of attachment-based family therapy for depressed adolescents—it’s all really building up to that place of helping the parents be able to sit with and hear the kids’ pain.
The way I think about it sometimes is that Brene Brown little video on empathy and the little bear going down into the hole—it talks about, to truly empathize with another, we have to connect with the part of ourselves that felt that feeling. Oftentimes, as a parent hearing the kid’s pain, their anxiety goes up because they want to soothe them. And then sometimes it can reinforce avoidance—some like the Lynn Lyons work or the Leitz work, as parents try to help kids manage the anxiety, they inadvertently give the feeling like, “Oh, bad feelings are really bad, we have to get rid of them.”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (40:18):
Stuff, that thing right back in there.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:20):
Yeah. So it’s hard, and that piece that you’re saying, helping the parent to sit with that discomfort to be able--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (40:27):
It’s hard.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:28):
Is not easy, especially--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (40:30):
Two of—can I teach this up, down, and sideways? Sometimes my daughter will call me upset and she'll say, “Mom, it’s a six—sellable word, I’m venting. That’s a four—sellable word.” Oh, sweetie, I’m sorry. I forgot. My mom just got going here. I was trying to fix it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:49):
Yep. We are in “fix it” mode or something like that.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (40:51):
So easy.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:52):
Definitely. Definitely. I think that’s so huge.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (40:55):
One of the things that I love about Keith is that you have a lot of empathy. You have a good solid sense of what works and a lot of empathy for what makes it hard to do. And one of the things I teach clinicians to do is when you see somebody messing up, it’s really easy to want to just step in and correct them.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:17):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (41:18):
And that’s so easily shaming.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:24):
Definitely.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (41:25):
I don’t like being corrected usually. And you’re going to have a much better connection if you can first say what you do and understand what they’re doing. So, you know, a stepdad cannot move out of disciplining his stepdaughters—I get it. Behavior is out of control, mom isn’t stepping in, of course you want to step in. Put this straight. And as I understand it, you come from a family where, you know, dad said “jump” and you said “how high?” This must just pull you right in. You’ve got a triple whammy here pulling you into exactly what isn’t working, and I know it isn’t working.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:09):
Yeah. The way I think about it is that positive intent—usually the person is doing the thing that makes sense to them and it feels like it’s going to be helpful. They’re trying to have that effect. Once we can understand—even in a situation we totally don’t agree with—why it makes sense to our client, we can say, “Oh, yeah, because you’re trying to keep her safe from getting in trouble with the drugs or whatever, it makes sense why you keep jumping in and setting these intense limits.” Then the client feels seen, and then we can say, “So it makes sense what you’re doing, but it’s kind of backfiring.”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (42:47):
Might have noticed it isn’t working.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:49):
Yeah. Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (42:51):
Yes. Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:52):
And sometimes I think that most people even kind of know what they need to do, but if everything were as easy as Dr. Phil—you said, “You just gotta quit the heroin”—the person goes, “Oh, thank you Dr. Phil, I hadn’t thought of that.” Most people know. It’s really what gets in the way of doing the things that they need to do—the difficulty—and really having compassion for that and helping clients along with that, being patient and compassionate.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (43:15):
Yes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:16):
Then you can partner--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (43:17):
Actually, with stepfamilies, I think often people don’t know--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (43:21):
Often don’t know they’re straining to blend and it’s failing. True. Once they do know, it’s sometimes hard to do. That’s when we go to that third intrapsychic level: I know that you, stepdad, get that this kind of harsh discipline isn’t going to work. I know you get it. We’ve talked about it. I know you get it, and something’s making it really hard for you to do.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (43:49):
We just pay attention to what’s happening inside—what’s frying your wires.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:56):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I love your approach, because it starts with psychoeducation. Do they even know what--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (44:05):
What the map is.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:06):
They’re supposed to be following the map, and then can they actually do that together as a dynamic, or are they struggling? And sometimes I even use EMDR when the person goes, “I know what I should do, I’m trying, I have the intent, but I get so triggered that I can’t put it into action.” Sometimes old stuff gets triggered and leads to disproportionate reactions.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (44:35):
Exactly. That’s one of the reasons why good trauma training, on top of good systems training, on top of a good map, makes sense. EMDR, IFS work, some forms of DBT—you’re going to need something different than just talking about it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:54):
Yeah. Otherwise you’re just banging your head against the wall.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (44:57):
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:59):
So you were mentioning too that something in an area of interest is also the, oh, actually, you know what, there was one more point. I don't know if we covered, which was about the family kind of culture aspect. Yes. And let's, let's kind of talk about that before we go into the families in the later life transition. Like, can you talk about it?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (45:17):
Well, that’s the fourth challenge. The first challenge is insider-outsider, the second is kids, the third is parenting, and the fifth is ex-spouses. The fourth challenge is creating a family culture. Often, there are at least two established cultures already, and one common mistake is just making a set of rules for everyone or saying, “We’ll do Christmas our way.” That usually backfires—it’s too much change, too fast for the kids. The dilemma is: how do we start building a new culture while still respecting the old cultures? Research shows that Latinx families, for example, do better when they incorporate both their Latinx culture and their new American culture. Dropping one entirely for the other doesn’t work—and this principle applies broadly. We often tell step couples to “talk about everything,” and yes, communication is important.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:32):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (46:33):
But some of the things we hold most dear have no language—if they ever did—until someone does it wrong. One story I often share: it’s the family’s first Christmas together. Stepmom hangs white lights on the tree. The stepdaughter comes downstairs, sees the tree, bursts into tears, and runs upstairs.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (49:14):
But learning by goofing—how else am I going to know? One thing I tell stepfamilies is that some of these things will change over time. My stepdaughter, my daughter, looked at our refrigerator for about a year or two. My husband’s last name is Goldberg. She went through the fridge and labeled things: “Papanol” for skim milk, low-fat mayo, non-fat yogurt, the entire vegetable and fruit drawer, and the fish; “Goldberg” for red meat, real mayo, whole milk—nothing in the vegetable or fruit drawer. Around year five, my husband and I got into Weight Watchers. He started eating more white meat, discovered fruit—he loves fruit. Now, 25 years later, our refrigerator has non-fat yogurt, no milk, still real mayo (my husband didn’t touch it):, and lots of fruit that we share. Some things are blended; some things remain separate.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (50:39):
I think it’s really hard for parents in these situations because they’re the ones needing to care for the kids’ emotions. These moments are opportunities for understanding—there’s something there you can explore if you’re curious.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (50:58):
Are we curious?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (50:59):
Yeah, but oftentimes, as a parent, you’re running around, making dinner or doing something, and the kid freaks out. You think, “Oh gosh…”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (51:08):
It’s hard to be curious when your arousal level’s really high. Take your breaths first.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (51:13):
And so that frustration can come up for a lot of families. Yeah. And also some power struggles, right? And I think, like you’re talking about, some families might take a stand—like, no, we’re going to have the tree this way, or something similar. And then, coming out with the couple, it can start to feel like an “in or out” situation. You know, is it us as a couple, or you as the kid? And really understanding what that means. Ultimately, everyone wants to know that they’re important. And like you’re saying, figuring out those different cultures and how to blend them, as well as managing major transitions.
I think you were also mentioning combining different kinds of cultural identities—for example, ethnic cultures. And also situations where a heterosexual family breaks up and the new partner is same-sex, or a same-sex partnership breaks up and becomes heterosexual.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (52:13):
You know, it’s interesting—the research shows that for kids, the fact that mom comes out and is now a lesbian is not as hard as having a stepparent. And the hardest part about mom being a lesbian isn’t that she’s a lesbian or that there’s another woman in the home. It’s that the child gets bullied at school.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (52:35):
Yeah, yeah. Because kids actually do very well in same-sex families. But sometimes it’s the larger social context--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (52:44):
Right. But it is an extra transition. You’re absolutely right.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (52:50):
To talk about older couples--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (52:52):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (52:54):
The rate of divorce has fallen and evened out in the United States—and there’s not a talk show host besides you who seems to know this. I don’t think it’s going up—except for people over 50, where it doubled between 1990 and 2010. We call that gray divorce. And with gray divorce comes recoupling.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (53:17):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (53:18):
The fantasy is that the kids are out of the house, the dog is gone—it's just us. When I do this with a PowerPoint, I first show the couple just the two of them. Then I show a diagram with all the generations and all the lines going between everyone. It really illustrates the reality. Because the fact is, a lot of these challenges are just as intense in gray couples—sometimes even more so. Now you have three generations of relationships, decades of friendships, connections, and holiday rituals. You don’t just have an ex-spouse; you have, for example, my mother, who had a 30-year relationship with my ex; my brother, for whom my ex-husband was like a new brother for 30 years. These relationships make the challenges complex, and adult kids are often not thrilled.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (54:22):
Research shows that adult children are often devastated when their parents divorce. It’s not easy—sometimes it’s harder than when kids are younger. Your whole foundation feels ripped apart. Adult kids also feel the same losses, loyalty binds, and disruptions that younger kids do. I recently consulted with an adult woman whose father is recoupled. Her father’s new partner doesn’t want him to see his daughter without her present, but he can’t see his kid without his new partner present. Adult children have to accept this reality. And the parent–child relationship itself is another reality. We’ll see more gray couples in the future because the over-65 population is growing exponentially, and with gray divorce and recoupling, these dynamics are increasingly common.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (55:19):
It’s important to know that these challenges apply to gray recoupling as well. Another issue in both late-life stepfamilies and gray recoupling is elder care and inheritance. Questions like: Where will Dad live if he becomes seriously ill? Who will handle these responsibilities? These issues are often more conflicted in stepfamilies than in first-time families. In first-time families, shared history usually helps people navigate these issues. Often, one adult daughter takes the lead, and everyone follows. In stepfamilies, roles must be explicit.
As clinicians, it’s important to make sure your adult children are included in your medical care if that’s your intention—get them on your HIPAA release, be clear about your wishes at the end of life, and ask about sentimental items. Otherwise, something important to a child might be treated like just an old, mismatched cup.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (56:40):
Yeah. And all of those pieces matter. I imagine that with older children or adult children, there’s often even more loyalty involved. Younger children might not fully grasp who hurt whom or the family history, but older children often get more involved.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (57:05):
Exactly. Adult daughters, in particular, are often expected by parents to mediate or communicate, but their well-being actually goes way down when they are pulled into these conflicts.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (57:20):
Yeah. And turning to them for support or so on, right, may be not so great for the hierarchy and kind of also for triangulation.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (57:28):
They're my dad. You're saying something terrible about my mom.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (57:32):
Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that somebody had told me once—I don't know if there's any data to back this up—that before a couple separates or divorces, oftentimes it's kind of like two years on average that one person is getting to that point of yes, ending. And then, you know, and I've thought about this with kids, and young kids and older, that oftentimes the parent that was not wanting the end of the relationship is devastated and so upset, where the other parent has detached over two years and is now having--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (58:00):
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (58:01):
—so the kids end up seeing, you know, mom hurt dad or dad hurt mom, or mom and mom, dad and dad, you know, because they're seeing the one parent in great pain and not--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (58:11):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (58:11):
—knowing the bigger context of how things got to that point. I don't know--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (58:17):
If there's any—I think you're absolutely right. And, you know, before we end, I want to say one more thing, and that is when a parent dies with COVID, we're going to see more of this.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (58:26):
Yes.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (58:26):
Oftentimes the fantasy is the stepparent can come and replace the missing parent. And it turns out kids do not want a replacement. Sometimes very young kids are open, but kids do not want a replacement. What kids need from stepparents is honoring their missing parents.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (58:46):
You know, can we plant something in the garden for your missing parent? It's your birthday—what would your mom do? How would you like your mom to be here at your birthday or wedding? What do you remember most about your mom? That the family includes that missing parent.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (59:03):
Kids who don't get that get depressed, or they get angry.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (59:08):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (59:09):
And there is one—one of the few really good trade books by Diane Fromme, spelled F-R-O-M-M-E, called Step-Parenting the Grieving Child.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (59:19):
Hmm.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (59:20):
And that's a really good one—one of the few. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (59:23):
Great book to say that out loud. Definitely. There's a movie—I dunno if you saw it--Blended. You know, it's kind of a comedy movie, but at one point the main character, the woman in the situation, one of the parents had died. And she, you know, the daughter's like, “Oh no, that's where my mom sits,” the kind of empty chair. Right, exactly. She says, “Okay, exactly. Let's pull up a different chair then,” and they have a place for mom at their table.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (59:49):
That's great.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (59:50):
You know, well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. You know, this is really great and I really appreciate it. I think this is such an important subject. I'm glad we can get it out to Mark. Thank--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (01:00:02):
Thanks for having me. I'm really glad to get this information out to people.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:00:06):
Great. Well, thanks a lot. Take care.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (01:00:10):
You too.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:00:12):
Thank you for joining us today. If you'd like to receive continuing education credits for the podcast you just listened to, please go to therapyonthecuttingedge.com and click on the link for CE. Our podcast is brought to you by the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, where we provide trainings for therapists in evidence-based models through live and online workshops, on-demand workshops, consultation groups, and online one-way mirror trainings. To learn more about our trainings and treatment for children, adolescents, families, couples, and individual adults, with our licensed experienced therapists in-person in the Bay Area, or throughout California online, and our employment opportunities, go to sfiap.com. To learn more about our associateships and psych assistantships and low fee treatment through our nonprofit Bay Area Community Counseling and Family Institute of Berkeley, go to sf-bacc.org and familyinstituteofberkeley.com. If you'd like to support therapy for those in financial need and training and evidence-based treatments, you can donate by going to BACC’s website at sfbacc.org. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit so all donations are tax deductible. Also, we really appreciate your feedback. If you have something you're interested in, something that's on the cutting edge of the field of psychotherapy, and you think therapists out there should know about it, send us an email. We're always looking for advancements in the field of psychotherapy to create lasting change for our clients.
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including Family Systems, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, Motivational Interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma; and our center for ADHD and Oppositional & Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:31):
In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible. Today I'll be speaking to Patricia Papow, EDD, who is a psychologist and well-known for her books, surviving and thriving in stepfamily relationships becoming a Stepfamily, and with her co-author, Karen Bonnel, the Stepfamily Handbook from Dating to Getting Serious to forming a blended family, as well as the author of dozens of articles and book chapters about blended families.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (02:42):
Dr. Papow is a systems and trauma trained clinician with a special focus in working with families through divorce and recoupling processes. She's a renowned educator teaching about stepfamilies all over the United States in the world, and she's a recipient of the 2017 Award for distinguished contribution to family Psychology from the American Psychological Association. Let's listen to the interview.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:03):
Hi, Patricia. Welcome.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (03:05):
Glad to be here.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:07):
Great. Thanks for joining me. So, let’s see. I went to a conference some years ago through the Association of Family Therapists in Northern California, in the Bay Area here, and you did a weekend conference on your work with stepfamilies. I got really interested in that topic and read your first book—or the book—on Surviving and Thriving in Stepfamily Relationships and really enjoyed it. And I’ve also been using your Stepfamily Handbook that came out a couple years ago as well. So thanks for joining. I’d love to hear more about your work and also just hear about your kind of, you know, your progression of your career and your thinking and how you got to thinking about what you’re working on now.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (03:55):
Well, I’m really glad to be here because stepfamilies are a fundamentally different kind of family form, and it’s still not taught. It needs to really be a basic part of every clinician’s training, and it’s not. Two percent of Americans have a close family relationship, and it doesn’t go like a first-time family.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (04:16):
Yeah. What percent was that?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (04:17):
It doesn’t go like a first-time family. Sure. If you’re trying to make it like one, you’re failing and feeling like you’re failing, and things go terribly, terribly wrong. It’s difficult enough knowing—having a good map. But if you are, it’d be like trying to drive around New York City with a map of Indiana. It just makes quite a mess. So I’m glad to be here.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (04:43):
Great. And what percentage were you saying of families are second time?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (04:46):
Forty-two percent of Americans have a close stepfamily relationship.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (04:52):
Oh, wow. A huge, huge amount.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (04:56):
Yeah. Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (04:59):
You asked me how I got into this. Yeah. In my first marriage, my husband had two kids. They were five and nine. And a few years later, it was time to do my dissertation. I was in a doctoral program. I was allowed to do a qualitative dissertation. I didn’t have to do numbers. I could interview people. And I could see that things were changing in my stepfamily. And it was probably that the kids
were getting older—eight and whatever plus three is—but there was something shifting, something more fundamental. So I did my dissertation on stages of development and becoming a stepfamily. And I got hooked. And that was over 40 years ago. And I’m still learning, because there’s so much to learn. And every new modality that I’ve learned, I’ve also folded into this work.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (05:57):
Yeah. And I’d love to hear too, because I know you integrate a number of different approaches. I think you’ve got family systems work that you’re doing, and I think also—I forget—was it emotionally focused couple therapy or AEDP or both, or, yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (06:12):
Well, I’m an integrator. I was actually originally trained in Gestalt therapy, which gave me really good grounding in the quality of contact and connection. And is it there and isn’t it? And what breaks it and what makes it—that was a wonderful foundation for me. And now I have a lot of trauma training. I have EMDR training. I have a smattering of EFT and AEDP. The modality I mostly work in now is internal family systems.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (06:44):
Oh, yes.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (06:47):
But I like to weave together all of the things that I know. And I started in this field doing psychoeducation. I ran a community mental health organization that provided mental health skills training for people, like nurses and teachers. And so I started with psycho ed, so training for trainers and training. Good, good. Experiential training is also part of my sort of solid base. And there’s a lot of psychoeducation that goes on in good stepfamily work.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (07:19):
Definitely. One of the things I really love about your book is how organized it is and really kind of looking at multiple levels, like on a psychoeducation level, on a systemic level, on an individual kind of level. And it’s just very—I love how you kind of break it down into the different major issues that come up for families and just kind of those multiple levels, from down kind of to the deeper interpersonal to the larger kind of general psychoeducation.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (07:50):
That’s great to hear. I don’t tire of hearing that, that book, Surviving and Thriving in Stepfamily Relationships, is helpful to people. That’s why I wrote it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (07:58):
Yeah. Yeah. I was giving it to even clients before you wrote your other book.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (08:02):
I wrote it for both actual clinicians and stepfamily members. The last book, Stepfamily Handbook, is written only for the public. So it’s easier, but there’s a lot more detailed information in Surviving and Thriving that stepfamily members like to read. And I do always like to ask people—I have a kid with language-based learning disabilities—so I always ask, do you like to read?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (08:26):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (08:27):
People don’t like to read books. That book’s a little thick. And also, if people don’t like to read, my website, stepfamilyrelationships.com, has a bunch of videos and a bunch of radio interviews, and those can be much more accessible for some people to get some good information.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (08:46):
Perfect. Great. So tell me about—yeah—how did you get from kind of working in the community settings and the psychoeducation piece to where you are now?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (08:58):
Well, how did I—man—I started my running event program, and then I went back to school and got my degree to become a psychologist. And as I said, my dissertation was on stepfamilies, and it’s been my sort of area of expertise ever since then. I have the things that I do well and love, love to do. Yeah. But it’s one area that I really think is just terribly important to teach about because there’s so much for clinicians to know about what works and what does not work in becoming and meeting the significant challenges of becoming a stepfamily.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (09:42):
Yeah. Yeah. And I know that what really struck me with your book is how there are such significant differences between a first-time family and a stepfamily. And that the couple, when getting into a relationship before there are kids involved, oftentimes have that time to attach and develop that attachment. And also what you talk about is finding common ground. You know, I don’t remember the example you would use, but I thought about this—you know, like the way they put their dishes in the dishwasher when you move in together versus the way that you do, and kind of figuring out all those little pieces that happen over time as a relationship progresses and kind of get solidified before kids come into the relationship.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (10:32):
That’s right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (10:33):
In many families, yeah. But in a stepfamily, the kids are already there. We’re all actually navigating all of that, and there’s not necessarily as much of a secure base.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (10:43):
The kids are not only already there, but the strong attachment is between the parent and child or children. And the understanding about everything from what’s too much to spend on a pair of sneakers to what’s allowed noise to, in my family, is it okay to eat standing in front of the refrigerator—you know, those understandings about how we do things are established between the parent and children. And the deep attachment is between parent and children, including a parent outside the household. And stepparents come in as an outsider to all of that. And that’s one of the things—I talk about five challenges. That is one of the first challenges: that you come together expecting blending.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (11:34):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (11:35):
And I notice, if you look at my work, I always use the language “blended family,” because it’s the language that we use. However, I always put quotes around it. It sets up an expectation that we’ll come right together like a first-time family. That’s the longing that we all have. However, as soon as the whole family is together, the parent and child have a connection; the stepparent is an outsider. So, you know, little Janie got off the bus and she made the soccer team, or she didn’t make the soccer team. She bursts in through the door. The person she wants to speak to is her parent. Yeah. Now, the stepparent may have just gotten his or her sweetie into a conversation, just the two of them, because they don’t have any time alone, as you said earlier, and they’re having a conversation. But what does a parent do?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (12:28):
The child bursts in saying, “Daddy, daddy, daddy.” What does a good parent do? You turn to your child. In a first time family, it would be Daddy, mommy, daddy, mommy. And both parents would turn, or if, you know, daddy turned, mommy, mommy's still connected in a step family. If daddy turns stepparent is left out. They get dropped or they feel dropped and they are dropped. You know, they're Stephen Porges. The neurobiologist has another thing that I've dipped into is interpersonal neurobiology says that we are wired for the people close to us to turn towards us. And when they turn away, it's deeply upsetting. And the other thing that's very hard is the stepparent is in that stuck outsider position. The parent's in a stuck insider position. If I turn to my kid, my sweetie is upset. If I turn to my sweetie, my kid feels left.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (13:30):
And when a parent and the stepparent go to talk about it, they're sitting in fundamentally different positions, both of them painful. So much easier to empathize when you both see the same thing. Yeah. But when you are sitting, your pain creates a division between you. Empathy is very challenging. And one of the things that we often have to do for step couples is first just give them a psycho ed. Yeah. You are arguing over this, not because you don't love each other, but because when Janie ran into the house, you, George, are the parent, and she turned to you, and you Emily were the stepparent. And you got left and you're arguing not because you don't love each other, but because you live in a stepfamily and structurally one of you is a stuck insider. That would be you, Joe. And one of you is a stuck outsider. And that would be you, Emily. And let me see if I can help you. That's the psychoeducation level. Interpersonal levels. Let me see if I can help you really hear each other, because you both need each other's empathy, and it's hard to get and hard to give.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (14:52):
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And the, and I know you talk about that the, there's the, the biological parent is that insider, the stepparent or the partner ends up being the outsider and then the kids end up kind of also, you know, moving in and out of that outside position going
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (15:11):
That's true.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:12):
Left out of--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (15:13):
Then, I talk about, yeah. I'll back up and say that I talk about five challenges that are specific to stepfamily. And one is that the couple is stuck in an insider and outsider position. The second is that kids experience a stepfamily very, very differently from a first time family. So oftentimes the adults are thrilled and the kids are really struggling. The third is that parenting tasks divide parents and stepparents. Parents everywhere want more boundaries and limits on what their kids and parents everywhere want more love and understanding for their kids. The fourth challenge is how do we build a family culture while we respect both cultures that already exist and sometimes it's more than two. And the fifth challenge last, but not least, is we have another parent, at least one other parent and an ex spouse and an ex spouse relationship that we have to manage. The household does not start and stop at our front door, even if that person has died.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:19):
Definitely.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (16:19):
Back to your question about kids. Kids struggle step by step, families with losses and loyalty bind and change. So losses for the adults, the new relationship is a wonderful gift. I mean, to find love when you've it's wonderful for kids. It's often a sense of loss and it's very hard for adults to get this. But so the example I often give is, imagine you have a really good buddy and both of you are single and you've been hanging out for a while and your buddy finds a new sweetheart. All go to lunch together. You're sitting at lunch and your buddy and his or her new sweetheart are eyeing each other. How do you feel? You're glad for them, but how do you feel?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (17:08):
Yeah. It's a bit uncomfortable.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (17:10):
Exactly. And do you really want to watch them kiss or hug? No. So kids need, you know, it's one thing if you're losing a buddy, kids need their parents and there's not another parent to turn to. And you know, adults are as gaga when they fall in love as any kid. Social media especially. You see a parent on their phone texting their love. Parent child time. So one of the things we say in the Stepfamily handbook is separate them out, no texting while you're with your kids. Yeah. So the first thing is losses. The second thing is loyalty binds. If I care about my stepparent I am disloyal to my parents, my other parents outside the household. And this is especially often between mothers and stepmothers. Yeah. And it seems to be almost genetic even when it's collaborative. But if there's tension, it's unbearable for kids. It often makes it very, very hard for kids to move towards a stepparent. Yeah. And the third thing is change. The adults want to rush forward. And my second marriage, we certainly rushed, we would've been a lot even faster, except my kid needed financial aid to go to college. Check that marriage box. You lose financial aid. So we waited six years. Right. We wouldn't have waited otherwise. And by the time we got married, the kids were ready, but we would've rushed it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (18:46):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (18:47):
So kids and the higher the rate of change, the lower kids' wellbeing.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (18:51):
Hmm.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (18:52):
So that's kids.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (18:54):
Yeah. And to the, to that effect too, I know you're talking about how you put blended in quotes and, and you use the analogy of like making a smoothie and all that elements kind of mix it together, but it's more like a fruit salad where the individual kind of pieces are, are kind of together. And that's oftentimes, you know, experience that, that I've worked with with Stepfamilies. Is that Yeah. They're feeling great. They're so excited. Especially too, you know, not only is love exciting and wonderful and gaga, but then oftentimes they've usually come out of a really not great relationship or where they were in pain for a long time, or they lost their partner you know, to death or so on. So that it's even more, you know, intense to have this good thing. And there's a feeling of like, oh, great.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (19:35):
Now we'll all come together and like, you know, we'll, we'll, it'll be easier another, we'll have another adult there so we can parent the kids and somebody else will be there and or, or we've got more than one, you know, kids on either side, they're all going to get along and so on. And yeah. It just, you know, they're feeling like, I think you've talked about or written about is that we're going to be one big happy family and you're going to throw 'em all together and that's going to work. Versus all the catching up that the kids have to do where the parents are at because they're, you know it's, it's all new. It's all different. It's all confusing.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (20:12):
And the kids didn't choose.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:13):
Yeah, definitely.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (20:15):
The kids didn't choose. The adults did. Two sets of kids. Won't my kid be thrilled to have a brother his age? Well, maybe step kids, step siblings tend to be either much closer and much more distant, but maybe not. What if I said to you, I've just chosen Luke over here and you get to live with him and be close to him. You don't get to choose. You might not like that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (20:43):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (20:44):
You might not like that at all. And you've touched on something else, which is parenting. And this is one of, I have a bunch of what I call easy wrong terms. This is such an easy, wrong term for stepfamily members and for clinicians the research is clear. Parents need to retain the disciplinary role until, or unless kids have formed a trusting, caring relationship with their stepparent. At that point, stepparents can move slowly into a slightly more firm discipline.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (21:23):
However before that parents need to retain the disciplinary role. And part of the dilemma is, as I said earlier, stepparents everywhere want more limits and boundaries with their step kids. I've taught all over the world. I haven't been anywhere. That wasn't true. I mean, every now and then you get a harsh authoritarian parent and a stepparent who's more authoritative, warm, and calmly firm. And that's really nice because it means a stepparent is stepping in. This actually happened with my step kids that I could step in and say honey, I think you're being awfully harsh on your son. All he did was lose his shoes. You know, that really helped me make a relationship with my step kids. But that's the minority. It's usually that stepparents really want more discipline. And so often stepparents are told to step in and exercise your authority and parents should back you up. And it's disastrous. I had a string of three consults. This must happen to you. Sometimes three consults all the same. A teenage adolescent girl hospitalized, suicidal in every single case, stepdad had stepped into a harsh disciplinary role. Now the kid was a mess. And it was quite understandable why stepdad did this.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (22:50):
Sure.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (22:51):
A little different in each family, but it was backfiring terribly. And the kids—all three kids—fell apart. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:00):
And oftentimes a parent, they’re trying to help out in the way that they think, you know, makes sense and, you know, rationally, and you know, right—structures or whatever it might be. But oftentimes, especially if the relationship is tenuous sometimes between the kids and their own parents, sometimes it just exacerbates it, like you’re saying, really kind of inflames the situation.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (23:23):
Well, and oftentimes stepparents do need to help parents firm up--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (23:29):
But they need to do that behind closed doors and have input. Parents have final say on their own kids. And that means stepparents have to bite their tongue a lot, which is awfully difficult. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:42):
Super frustrating. Let’s--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (23:43):
Back up and talk a little bit about what helps these challenges, especially the first two. One of the things that helps is a lot of one-to-one time. Because that word blended would make you think that if we all spend time together, we’ll get closer. Well, it’s true—new stepfamilies need to play together. They need to do fun things together. And every time the whole family is together, there’s competition between the subsystems.
I’m talking to clinicians. I can talk about subsystems. If the couple is close, parent-child, the child is left out; the parent-child is close, the stepparent left out. And every time we’re all together, the parent-child relationship trumps the stepparent–stepchild relationship.
Creating some one-to-one time—some one-to-one time for the couple without kids present—where the stepparent feels the full attention of the parent and the parent doesn’t feel divided. One-to-one parent-child time, regular one-to-one parent-child time. And this includes older recoupling with adult kids. Adult kids need their parents too.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (24:57):
And one-to-one stepparent–stepchild time, doing something fun, kind of shoulder to shoulder. And some kids will be more available than others. When I say to stepparents, it is connection before correction. My friend said, relationships before rules. What can you connect about? What could you do together? You know, one of my stepsons taught me how to Twitter--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (25:24):
He taught me how to do it. And, you know, kids can often teach stepparents a lot about technology.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:30):
Yeah, definitely.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (25:31):
And I just had a stepparent who said, “Well, he plays online all the time. I’m not interested in online.” Well, could you go find out what interests him about it? Could you get him to tell you and show you? And could you pull up the part of you that could be interested?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (25:48):
Yeah. And I think definitely for a lot of families that ends up being a piece. Yes—connecting with the kids on what they’re interested in, even if they’re not so listening, that’s about Minecraft for 20 minutes or whatever, right? You know, some parents are like, “Oh, I don’t want to listen.” But again, it’s their world, and stepping into their world. And I think, as you’re saying, it’s even more important with stepparents, you know, because they don’t have that basis of relationship that the parent has had throughout their life.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (26:19):
You have to build a relationship.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (26:21):
I’ve thought about it and wondered too. I mean, the empathy sometimes I think that a parent ends up having for the kids because they’ve been there so long, because they have a little bit more of that perspective, also I think ends up making it—I don’t know—maybe that’s why they are a little less focused on the structure and those boundaries. They can more easily see exceptions and context. Whereas sometimes stepparents are a little more black and white, and it’s a little harder to make exceptions because they’re not having that kind of foundational attachment that the parent does.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (27:00):
I think you’re exactly right. You know, yeah, I care about my kids. I’ve got a heart connection with her. If she does something a little stupid or irritating, it’s not as irritating to me. I’ll bet if you wired me up, I wouldn’t get as upset. And it’s much more upsetting to the stepparent.
And if this is a kid who doesn’t ever say hello to you and she or he leaves a mess in the kitchen, how much more irritating is that? And parent and child have agreements about how things go.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (27:38):
I was glad to have my kid make her own meal and make a mess in the kitchen. Being a single parent for 10 years, she made a mess—that was the last thing I cared about. But, you know, if you’re the stepparent and you walk into this mess, it’s not the last thing you cared about. Yeah. Well, why didn’t you teach your kid to clean up?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (28:00):
Well, because it kind of ends up, I think, especially if partners are living together and maybe the kids aren’t there full time, it’s the stepparent’s space. And oftentimes they can feel encroached upon, whereas the parent might be more focused on the value of the cooking, and the stepparent might be more focused on the value of their space being respected.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (28:23):
Absolutely. I think you’ve got that exactly right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (28:26):
Yeah, and I think you’ve talked about this—that the stepparent and the biological parent almost inevitably end up polarizing each other. The harder one gets, the softer the other gets; the softer the other gets, the harder the other gets.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (28:41):
Exactly. And part of the dilemma is what kids need is authoritative parenting. We have a ton of research about this. Authoritative parenting is caring and warm and empathic, and it also sets moderately firm, developmentally appropriate limits and follows through. Authoritarian parenting is harsh and cold. It backfires in almost every culture when stepparents use it. And this includes cultures like Japanese culture and Latino culture, where authoritarian parenting is more valued. Authoritarian parenting by stepparents backfires. And parents get pulled to more permissive parenting. That actually happens sometimes in single parenting as well, just because it’s harder to hold limits when you’re parenting alone. And you’re exactly right—I call it the polarization polka. One of the major things you see often in step couples is that what kids need is not either authoritarian or permissive. What they need is authoritative parenting from the parent.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (29:54):
So kids aren’t getting their needs met for two reasons. One is they need authoritative parenting, not harsh or permissive parenting. And the other is that conflict is very bad for kids. You know, that’s the fifth challenge of ex-spouses. But conflict in the household is very hard for kids. It’s not whether it’s a single-parent family, a stepfamily, or a first-time family. The most robust predictor of children’s wellbeing is low conflict. High-conflict parenting is linked to kids with poor wellbeing. And divorced parents whose conflict is low tend to have kids with fairly good wellbeing. So when a parent and stepparent are fighting over parenting, that’s not good for kids. If you’re going to tangle, you’re probably going to do it behind closed doors.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (31:08):
If the kids hear it, go back and repair it. “I’m so sorry. You heard us be tense with each other. That was no fun. That must have been hard.” No explanation. Really acknowledging the kid.
And the same actually is true. This gets us to that fifth challenge around tension with the other household. If you can protect your kids from tension, it’s huge. It makes a big, big, big, big difference. If you cannot, then you need to repair it with kids. You need to say, “You just saw mommy and daddy, or daddy and daddy fight. I’m so sorry. That’s not good for kids. I’ll bet it feels terrible. I’m sorry.”
In a good divorce, the parents don’t fight. And notice I’m not blaming my partner, my ex-wife partner. I’m not saying, “Daddy picked a fight.” I’m saying in a good divorce the parents don’t fight. And I gotta--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:16):
That is neutral. Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (32:17):
Better language. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (32:21):
Well, and I have a question too about, you know, this oftentimes comes up. Somebody told me once that co-parenting is the ideal, parallel parenting is the norm. That most families are kind of doing their own thing. Yes, it would be ideal if all the rules and expectations were the same at each household, but that’s rarely the case because oftentimes people are creating their own systems in their home based on their personalities and such. So it ends up being parallel parenting, and kids adjust—well, just like moving from one house to school, and school having a different set of standards and expectations. And then to another house that may be different, that’s okay as long as it’s kind of consistent and there’s that sense.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (33:09):
But sometimes I’ve got a parent that is really struggling because they’re so frustrated about what’s going on in the other household and very preoccupied and kind of focused on changing what’s going on in the other household. I’m often trying to redirect them back to doing what they can in their household. Sometimes they get so focused on what’s happening in the other, they feel hopeless and then they end up not doing the things that they would like to be doing, the values that they’d like to be holding, and the structure on their own. Yeah. I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on this, or is that an issue that comes up?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (33:46):
It is an issue that comes up, and you’re exactly right. There is some research that’s somewhat comforting. That is, if you have one authoritative parent—one parent who’s steady and warm and empathic and sets developmentally appropriate limits—that makes a difference for kids, even if the other parent is a mess. Hmm. That’s important for parents to know.
There’s a wonderful book, Custody, Chaos, Personal Peace, about these kinds of issues. If it’s not life and death, if it doesn’t impact your kid in your house, oftentimes even if it does, you gotta let go.
Now what’s hard is when it does impact. You know, I just consulted in a case where a very narcissistic, very drug-using, alcoholic ex-husband who likes a lot of control and wants custody of the kid and is lying, found a woman with two teens—not getting the kid to bed on time, badmouthing mom. It’s terribly difficult. Yeah. Difficult. So mom may need to say something about dad, but how do you say something that validates the kids’ experience without tightening the loyalty bind?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (35:17):
Sure. Like how do you help them process that in that experience?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (35:20):
Exactly. So, you know, in a good divorce, the parents don’t badmouth each other. “I’m sorry that you’re hearing badmouthing—that has to be really painful for you.” So it’s got three parts: in a good divorce, the parents don’t badmouth each other; the fact you are hearing badmouthing; and back to the kid, “That must be hard for you.”
Yes, you’re right. “Daddy drinks, he was drinking and driving. That must have been terrifying for you. Let’s figure out what to do.”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (35:59):
Let’s figure out what you can do. “No, I can’t believe he did it again. That was a terrible thing for him to do.” That increases the kid’s loyalty bind, number one, but neurobiologically, where’s my arousal level? It’s going up. Kids need help calming down, and they need to borrow our neurobiological system to calm themselves.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (36:24):
Yeah. So that’s co-regulation.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (36:26):
Exactly. Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (36:28):
Definitely. And I’ve thought about that too. Especially sometimes when I talk about parents going through divorce or couples ending, one of the big pieces, like you’re saying, is the decrease in conflict and also the attachment to the kids—kids being able to turn to the parents with their big emotions, and parents being able to be with them. Or sometimes I describe it as the rock in the ocean that the waves hit up against, rather than a set of waves smashing into each other.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (36:57):
Oh, that’s nice. I like that.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (36:59):
Yeah. Because that piece, even though things in life are hard, if the kids can turn and sit and process those feelings and be with those feelings with the parents, oftentimes there’s that sense of--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (37:12):
It’s much better. And here’s one of the dilemmas: the kid says, “I hate my new stepmother.”Now I love your new stepmother. God forbid your new stepmother should have heard you said that. How easy for a parent to say, “Oh, she’s a nice person,”— Or, “I don’t want to hear you say bad things about her.”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (37:38):
Much harder for parents. This is another place where the two people are in such different positions, for parents to empathize across that difference—oh, take a breath, mom or dad. “Oh, sounds like you’re having a really hard time with your stepmom. Sounds like this is a lot of change in my experience.”
Many parents need help with this. So if you work with kids or with parents and kids, oftentimes you need to help kids find their voice. Lots of kids feel this and this and this. “Does that fit with you?” And then I meet with the parent and the kid and I set the parent up: your job is to hear the kid’s pain. Zero to 10—10 really hard, zero easy. How hard’s this going to be for you? If it’s really hard, let’s do some work before we meet. I’m really going to help the parents listen, and I call it joining.
The kid says, “I hate my stepmother.” Take a breath. Mom or dad, tell your kid what you do. Understand. “I know you love your daughter. You tell her what you do. Understand. I get that you’re really unhappy. Great.”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (38:59):
And with parents and kids, this goes one direction: from the kid to the parent. I think the family version of EEFT or EFT does this beautifully, just beautifully. But this is a place in stepfamilies where parents often need help really hearing their kids.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (39:19):
Definitely. Yeah. One of my earlier interviews with Guy Diamond, the developer of attachment-based family therapy for depressed adolescents—it’s all really building up to that place of helping the parents be able to sit with and hear the kids’ pain.
The way I think about it sometimes is that Brene Brown little video on empathy and the little bear going down into the hole—it talks about, to truly empathize with another, we have to connect with the part of ourselves that felt that feeling. Oftentimes, as a parent hearing the kid’s pain, their anxiety goes up because they want to soothe them. And then sometimes it can reinforce avoidance—some like the Lynn Lyons work or the Leitz work, as parents try to help kids manage the anxiety, they inadvertently give the feeling like, “Oh, bad feelings are really bad, we have to get rid of them.”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (40:18):
Stuff, that thing right back in there.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:20):
Yeah. So it’s hard, and that piece that you’re saying, helping the parent to sit with that discomfort to be able--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (40:27):
It’s hard.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:28):
Is not easy, especially--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (40:30):
Two of—can I teach this up, down, and sideways? Sometimes my daughter will call me upset and she'll say, “Mom, it’s a six—sellable word, I’m venting. That’s a four—sellable word.” Oh, sweetie, I’m sorry. I forgot. My mom just got going here. I was trying to fix it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:49):
Yep. We are in “fix it” mode or something like that.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (40:51):
So easy.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:52):
Definitely. Definitely. I think that’s so huge.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (40:55):
One of the things that I love about Keith is that you have a lot of empathy. You have a good solid sense of what works and a lot of empathy for what makes it hard to do. And one of the things I teach clinicians to do is when you see somebody messing up, it’s really easy to want to just step in and correct them.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:17):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (41:18):
And that’s so easily shaming.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (41:24):
Definitely.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (41:25):
I don’t like being corrected usually. And you’re going to have a much better connection if you can first say what you do and understand what they’re doing. So, you know, a stepdad cannot move out of disciplining his stepdaughters—I get it. Behavior is out of control, mom isn’t stepping in, of course you want to step in. Put this straight. And as I understand it, you come from a family where, you know, dad said “jump” and you said “how high?” This must just pull you right in. You’ve got a triple whammy here pulling you into exactly what isn’t working, and I know it isn’t working.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:09):
Yeah. The way I think about it is that positive intent—usually the person is doing the thing that makes sense to them and it feels like it’s going to be helpful. They’re trying to have that effect. Once we can understand—even in a situation we totally don’t agree with—why it makes sense to our client, we can say, “Oh, yeah, because you’re trying to keep her safe from getting in trouble with the drugs or whatever, it makes sense why you keep jumping in and setting these intense limits.” Then the client feels seen, and then we can say, “So it makes sense what you’re doing, but it’s kind of backfiring.”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (42:47):
Might have noticed it isn’t working.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:49):
Yeah. Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (42:51):
Yes. Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (42:52):
And sometimes I think that most people even kind of know what they need to do, but if everything were as easy as Dr. Phil—you said, “You just gotta quit the heroin”—the person goes, “Oh, thank you Dr. Phil, I hadn’t thought of that.” Most people know. It’s really what gets in the way of doing the things that they need to do—the difficulty—and really having compassion for that and helping clients along with that, being patient and compassionate.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (43:15):
Yes.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:16):
Then you can partner--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (43:17):
Actually, with stepfamilies, I think often people don’t know--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (43:21):
Often don’t know they’re straining to blend and it’s failing. True. Once they do know, it’s sometimes hard to do. That’s when we go to that third intrapsychic level: I know that you, stepdad, get that this kind of harsh discipline isn’t going to work. I know you get it. We’ve talked about it. I know you get it, and something’s making it really hard for you to do.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (43:49):
We just pay attention to what’s happening inside—what’s frying your wires.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:56):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I love your approach, because it starts with psychoeducation. Do they even know what--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (44:05):
What the map is.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:06):
They’re supposed to be following the map, and then can they actually do that together as a dynamic, or are they struggling? And sometimes I even use EMDR when the person goes, “I know what I should do, I’m trying, I have the intent, but I get so triggered that I can’t put it into action.” Sometimes old stuff gets triggered and leads to disproportionate reactions.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (44:35):
Exactly. That’s one of the reasons why good trauma training, on top of good systems training, on top of a good map, makes sense. EMDR, IFS work, some forms of DBT—you’re going to need something different than just talking about it.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:54):
Yeah. Otherwise you’re just banging your head against the wall.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (44:57):
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (44:59):
So you were mentioning too that something in an area of interest is also the, oh, actually, you know what, there was one more point. I don't know if we covered, which was about the family kind of culture aspect. Yes. And let's, let's kind of talk about that before we go into the families in the later life transition. Like, can you talk about it?
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (45:17):
Well, that’s the fourth challenge. The first challenge is insider-outsider, the second is kids, the third is parenting, and the fifth is ex-spouses. The fourth challenge is creating a family culture. Often, there are at least two established cultures already, and one common mistake is just making a set of rules for everyone or saying, “We’ll do Christmas our way.” That usually backfires—it’s too much change, too fast for the kids. The dilemma is: how do we start building a new culture while still respecting the old cultures? Research shows that Latinx families, for example, do better when they incorporate both their Latinx culture and their new American culture. Dropping one entirely for the other doesn’t work—and this principle applies broadly. We often tell step couples to “talk about everything,” and yes, communication is important.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (46:32):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (46:33):
But some of the things we hold most dear have no language—if they ever did—until someone does it wrong. One story I often share: it’s the family’s first Christmas together. Stepmom hangs white lights on the tree. The stepdaughter comes downstairs, sees the tree, bursts into tears, and runs upstairs.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (49:14):
But learning by goofing—how else am I going to know? One thing I tell stepfamilies is that some of these things will change over time. My stepdaughter, my daughter, looked at our refrigerator for about a year or two. My husband’s last name is Goldberg. She went through the fridge and labeled things: “Papanol” for skim milk, low-fat mayo, non-fat yogurt, the entire vegetable and fruit drawer, and the fish; “Goldberg” for red meat, real mayo, whole milk—nothing in the vegetable or fruit drawer. Around year five, my husband and I got into Weight Watchers. He started eating more white meat, discovered fruit—he loves fruit. Now, 25 years later, our refrigerator has non-fat yogurt, no milk, still real mayo (my husband didn’t touch it):, and lots of fruit that we share. Some things are blended; some things remain separate.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (50:39):
I think it’s really hard for parents in these situations because they’re the ones needing to care for the kids’ emotions. These moments are opportunities for understanding—there’s something there you can explore if you’re curious.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (50:58):
Are we curious?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (50:59):
Yeah, but oftentimes, as a parent, you’re running around, making dinner or doing something, and the kid freaks out. You think, “Oh gosh…”
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (51:08):
It’s hard to be curious when your arousal level’s really high. Take your breaths first.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (51:13):
And so that frustration can come up for a lot of families. Yeah. And also some power struggles, right? And I think, like you’re talking about, some families might take a stand—like, no, we’re going to have the tree this way, or something similar. And then, coming out with the couple, it can start to feel like an “in or out” situation. You know, is it us as a couple, or you as the kid? And really understanding what that means. Ultimately, everyone wants to know that they’re important. And like you’re saying, figuring out those different cultures and how to blend them, as well as managing major transitions.
I think you were also mentioning combining different kinds of cultural identities—for example, ethnic cultures. And also situations where a heterosexual family breaks up and the new partner is same-sex, or a same-sex partnership breaks up and becomes heterosexual.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (52:13):
You know, it’s interesting—the research shows that for kids, the fact that mom comes out and is now a lesbian is not as hard as having a stepparent. And the hardest part about mom being a lesbian isn’t that she’s a lesbian or that there’s another woman in the home. It’s that the child gets bullied at school.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (52:35):
Yeah, yeah. Because kids actually do very well in same-sex families. But sometimes it’s the larger social context--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (52:44):
Right. But it is an extra transition. You’re absolutely right.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (52:50):
To talk about older couples--
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (52:52):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (52:54):
The rate of divorce has fallen and evened out in the United States—and there’s not a talk show host besides you who seems to know this. I don’t think it’s going up—except for people over 50, where it doubled between 1990 and 2010. We call that gray divorce. And with gray divorce comes recoupling.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (53:17):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (53:18):
The fantasy is that the kids are out of the house, the dog is gone—it's just us. When I do this with a PowerPoint, I first show the couple just the two of them. Then I show a diagram with all the generations and all the lines going between everyone. It really illustrates the reality. Because the fact is, a lot of these challenges are just as intense in gray couples—sometimes even more so. Now you have three generations of relationships, decades of friendships, connections, and holiday rituals. You don’t just have an ex-spouse; you have, for example, my mother, who had a 30-year relationship with my ex; my brother, for whom my ex-husband was like a new brother for 30 years. These relationships make the challenges complex, and adult kids are often not thrilled.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (54:22):
Research shows that adult children are often devastated when their parents divorce. It’s not easy—sometimes it’s harder than when kids are younger. Your whole foundation feels ripped apart. Adult kids also feel the same losses, loyalty binds, and disruptions that younger kids do. I recently consulted with an adult woman whose father is recoupled. Her father’s new partner doesn’t want him to see his daughter without her present, but he can’t see his kid without his new partner present. Adult children have to accept this reality. And the parent–child relationship itself is another reality. We’ll see more gray couples in the future because the over-65 population is growing exponentially, and with gray divorce and recoupling, these dynamics are increasingly common.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (55:19):
It’s important to know that these challenges apply to gray recoupling as well. Another issue in both late-life stepfamilies and gray recoupling is elder care and inheritance. Questions like: Where will Dad live if he becomes seriously ill? Who will handle these responsibilities? These issues are often more conflicted in stepfamilies than in first-time families. In first-time families, shared history usually helps people navigate these issues. Often, one adult daughter takes the lead, and everyone follows. In stepfamilies, roles must be explicit.
As clinicians, it’s important to make sure your adult children are included in your medical care if that’s your intention—get them on your HIPAA release, be clear about your wishes at the end of life, and ask about sentimental items. Otherwise, something important to a child might be treated like just an old, mismatched cup.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (56:40):
Yeah. And all of those pieces matter. I imagine that with older children or adult children, there’s often even more loyalty involved. Younger children might not fully grasp who hurt whom or the family history, but older children often get more involved.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (57:05):
Exactly. Adult daughters, in particular, are often expected by parents to mediate or communicate, but their well-being actually goes way down when they are pulled into these conflicts.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (57:20):
Yeah. And turning to them for support or so on, right, may be not so great for the hierarchy and kind of also for triangulation.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (57:28):
They're my dad. You're saying something terrible about my mom.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (57:32):
Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that somebody had told me once—I don't know if there's any data to back this up—that before a couple separates or divorces, oftentimes it's kind of like two years on average that one person is getting to that point of yes, ending. And then, you know, and I've thought about this with kids, and young kids and older, that oftentimes the parent that was not wanting the end of the relationship is devastated and so upset, where the other parent has detached over two years and is now having--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (58:00):
Exactly.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (58:01):
—so the kids end up seeing, you know, mom hurt dad or dad hurt mom, or mom and mom, dad and dad, you know, because they're seeing the one parent in great pain and not--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (58:11):
Right.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (58:11):
—knowing the bigger context of how things got to that point. I don't know--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (58:17):
If there's any—I think you're absolutely right. And, you know, before we end, I want to say one more thing, and that is when a parent dies with COVID, we're going to see more of this.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (58:26):
Yes.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (58:26):
Oftentimes the fantasy is the stepparent can come and replace the missing parent. And it turns out kids do not want a replacement. Sometimes very young kids are open, but kids do not want a replacement. What kids need from stepparents is honoring their missing parents.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (58:46):
You know, can we plant something in the garden for your missing parent? It's your birthday—what would your mom do? How would you like your mom to be here at your birthday or wedding? What do you remember most about your mom? That the family includes that missing parent.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (59:03):
Kids who don't get that get depressed, or they get angry.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (59:08):
Yeah.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (59:09):
And there is one—one of the few really good trade books by Diane Fromme, spelled F-R-O-M-M-E, called Step-Parenting the Grieving Child.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (59:19):
Hmm.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (59:20):
And that's a really good one—one of the few. Yeah.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (59:23):
Great book to say that out loud. Definitely. There's a movie—I dunno if you saw it--Blended. You know, it's kind of a comedy movie, but at one point the main character, the woman in the situation, one of the parents had died. And she, you know, the daughter's like, “Oh no, that's where my mom sits,” the kind of empty chair. Right, exactly. She says, “Okay, exactly. Let's pull up a different chair then,” and they have a place for mom at their table.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (59:49):
That's great.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (59:50):
You know, well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. You know, this is really great and I really appreciate it. I think this is such an important subject. I'm glad we can get it out to Mark. Thank--
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (01:00:02):
Thanks for having me. I'm really glad to get this information out to people.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:00:06):
Great. Well, thanks a lot. Take care.
Patricia Papernow, EdD: (01:00:10):
You too.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:00:12):
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