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Sam Jinich, Ph.D. - Guest
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. is a Clinical Psychologist in private practice, licensed in California since 1995, and currently based in Buenos Aires, Argentina. He is an internationally recognized Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) Trainer, Supervisor, and Certified Couple Therapist, endorsed by the International Centre for Excellence in Emotionally Focused Therapy (ICEEFT). Sam teaches EFT to therapists across the globe in English and Spanish. In North America, his trainings feature English-language didactic presentations with the option of bilingual experiential role plays—reflecting his belief that Latinx bilingual therapists should learn in the language they are most comfortable with, while deliberately practicing in the language they use clinically. A respected leader in the EFT community, Sam co-founded the Northern California Community for EFT (NCCEFT) and served as its EFT Trainer until 2025. He is also a past president of the San Francisco Psychological Association. Over nearly three decades, he has trained thousands of therapists, taught at multiple universities, published scientific research on trauma and family dynamics, and coauthored the APA book Deliberate Practice in Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy. Sam is the Clinical Director of the San Francisco Consultancy in Emotionally Focused Therapy (SFCEFT). Sam will be co-leading an EFT Externship in San Diego in person in September 2025 and an EFT Externship online in May 2026. Learn more at www.drsamjinich.com and or on the ICEEFT website. |
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W. Keith Sutton, Psy.D. - Host
Dr. Sutton has always had an interest in learning from multiple theoretical perspectives, and keeping up to date on innovations and integrations. He is interested in the development of ideas, and using research to show effectiveness in treatment and refine treatments. In 2009 he started the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, providing a one-way mirror training in family therapy with James Keim, LCSW. Next, he added a trainer and one-way mirror training in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and an additional trainer and mirror in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. The participants enjoyed analyzing cases, keeping each other up to date on research, and discussing what they were learning. This focus on integrating and evolving their approaches to helping children, adolescents, families, couples, and individuals lead to the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy's training program for therapists, and its group practice of like-minded clinicians who were dedicated to learning, innovating, and advancing the field of psychotherapy. Our podcast, Therapy on the Cutting Edge, is an extension of this wish to learn, integrate, stay up to date, and share this passion for the advancement of the field with other practitioners. |
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (00:24):
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including family systems, cognitive behavioral therapy, emotionally focused couples therapy, eye movement desensitization reprocessing, motivational interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using emotionally focused couples therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma; and our center for ADHD and oppositional and Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:31):
In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (02:19):
Today I'll be speaking with Dr. Sam Jinich, who's a clinical psychologist in private practice, licensed in California since 1995, and currently based in Buenos Aires, Argentina. He's an internationally recognized, emotionally focused therapy trainer, supervisor, and certified couples therapist endorsed by the International Center for Excellence in Emotionally Focused Therapy. Sam teaches EFT to therapists across the globe in English and Spanish. In North America, his trainings feature English language didactic presentations with the option of bilingual experiential role plays, reflecting his belief that Latinx bilingual therapists should learn in the language they are most comfortable with while deliberately practicing in the language they use clinically. A respected leader in the EFT community, Sam co-founded the Northern California community for EFT and served as its EFT trainer until 2025. He is also a past president of the San Francisco Psychological Association. Over nearly three decades, he has trained thousands of therapists, taught at multiple universities, published scientific research on trauma and family dynamics, and co-authored the APA book, Deliberate Practice in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. Sam is the clinical director for the San Francisco Consultancy and Emotionally Focused Therapy. Let's listen to the interview.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:35):
Well, hi, Sam. Welcome.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (03:38):
Hi, Keith. So nice to be with you today. Thanks for the invite.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:42):
Definitely. It's so great to see you again. It's been forever. So Sam, I know of your work particularly in the EFT community emotionally focused couples therapy. You had actually taught some workshops for my institute and then actually supervised me and, and ran our one-way mirror training and actually supervised me as a supervisor getting certified in EFT. And I know that you went on to become an EFT trainer and have also been doing trainings you know, in in different countries and so on. So I really want to hear about kinda all the work that you've been doing. But first let me start off and, and find out about, I always like to find out, you know, kind of how did you get to doing what you're doing? What was kind of the evolution of your thinking that got you where you are today?
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (04:29):
Yeah, no, it's a really, it's a really good question and one that I really have to mostly thank my clients for how they led me to want to do more than I was already doing. My path to emotionally focused therapy-- it was not a straight line. I was interested in all kinds of modalities. I would go to all kinds of conference, I would go to every conference. I was always interested in couples. From the very time that I went into graduate school, I was always drawn to working with couples. And I went and learned every different kind of model of therapy for couples therapy that you can, that you can find. And I was, after every single one, I was excited about what I was learning, and I would go straight back into my into my practice and try everything that I had learned.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (05:22):
And I was always like very enthusiastic. But over time there was a gradual unfolding or a convergence of personal curiosity, clinical frustration, and a deepening interest in the science of human connection. In the early stages of my clinical work, I was drawn to evidence-based practices, various, you know, more symptom focused models. I actually, in graduate school learned cognitive behavioral approaches. And I also -- prior to my doctorate program -- I mean, my master's program I learned family systems, systemic therapy, and I found cognitive and behavioral approaches provided very helpful tools. But over time, I noticed a gap in my work, many of my clients started to give me some feedback, which is why I am so eternally grateful to them. That they were finding that some of the work that we were doing wasn't going deep enough.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (06:24):
And after a few times of hearing that, those words, I was like, hang on. I mean, I'm doing everything that I was supposed to. I'm doing everything I've learned to do, and yet I'm, I'm hearing this from a few of my, my dearest clients who I felt like, "Hey, here we are. We're rolling, we're doing good work." And so I mean, my clients were speaking about their patterns, even spoke insightfully about their issues. But things were not always changing in their relationships. And I began to wonder, like, "Why doesn't insight alone lead to transformation?" And so my turning point came when, well, I asked myself, "What exactly does it mean to do deeper therapy, to do deeper emotional work?" And I think my turning point came when I began reading about attachment theory.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (07:22):
Not just as a developmental psychology, but as a real living map for adult relationships. John Bowlby's ideas lit a spark in me. And then something else happened, which was 9-11 occurred in the United States -- the attack on the World Trade Center towers -- and there was all this trauma widely felt in my community and in my country. And I saw, once the world was starting to, once the US was starting to allow us to travel again, and things started to kind of feel like we were returning to some kind of normalcy, there was a workshop, a training, an all day training offered by someone called Sue Johnson down in Irvine, California. And I had never heard her speak. This was in 2001. So, I started to hear about - I started to hear her ideas, and it, and it was... it was all about relationships and all about attachment and Bowlby and love.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (08:39):
She actually mentioned the word love, which I had never heard of in my graduate program whenever I took any couples therapy classes, no one ever spoke about love. They just talked about how to improve communication skills, or how to help couples negotiate their differences better. And it was never really touching-- never getting really to the heart of the matter. So when I discovered Sue Johnson's work, everything started to click. Emotionally focused therapy didn't just talk about attachment, it showed how to work with it in the therapy room -- how to not only work with attachment and thinking systemically, but how to work with emotions. Suddenly the distance between theory and practice is narrowed...I saw how couples' distress was often a protest against emotional disconnection, which is one of the first things that I learned.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (09:33):
And I loved to think about distress and conflict as a form of emotional disconnection that couples protest in their particular way. Their conflicts weren't just random, they were patterned. And those patterns then were driven by longings for security, for responsiveness, for safe emotional engagement, for accessibility. Right? So learning EFT just changed my stance as a therapist. Instead of trying to referee or fix communication, I began tuning into the emotional music, beneath the words. I listened for protest, for fear, for longings. You know, I saw that helping clients access and share their most vulnerable feelings with each other was the heart of transformation. So not just symptom relief, but repair and reconnection. And so, it just started to really resonate with me-- it shaped me as a therapist, it resonated with my personal journey.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (10:35):
It changed me as a human. And I just started... I'm an enthusiastic person in general, but I was just fascinated by this thing. And then I started trying it out, which is really something about emotionally focused therapy, is that as soon as you learn it, you can try it, you can start using it, and you will see an immediate shift in how your therapy goes and how you feel as a therapist. And you feel so good, you feel so effective. I mean, I started to feel like I was finally able to really help. And my couples -- I am eternally grateful to my couples for how they led me to EFT, and also for how they continue every day to teach me more and more about emotionally focused therapy and about emotions and human connection. You know, to me, EFT is not just a model. It is a lens through which I can understand human beings and their reactions much better.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (11:33):
I have my -- well, no one can see this, but I'm actually, I wear glasses -- but I think of my glasses as these attachment lenses in which I see the way that people relate to each other, interact with each other through these attachment lenses. And it helps me to feel great-- much, much greater empathy for both people's experiences and perspectives. I also have found it to be extremely helpful when understanding how trauma plays a role in people's lives and in people's relationships. And so I loved EFT and I became an EFT therapist, and I became an EFT supervisor. And then I was invited by Dr. Sue Johnson to be an EFT trainer. Which it took me a while to accept her offer. It took her a few attempts asking me, because I just didn't feel like I could be a trainer or teacher of something that I was still just learning. You know, like, I felt like, "No, I have to feel really good at it and really confident in it until..."
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (12:45):
But because I am originally born and raised in Mexico City, I'm bilingual, bicultural. She was really interested in my helping her to bring EFT into the Spanish-speaking world. Right? And so, given that I was born in Mexico City-- well, first I accepted her invitation to be a trainer, and I was trained to be an EFT trainer by both Dr. Sue Johnson. And my other mentors were Jim Furrow and Lisa Palmer-Olson, and-- who I'm also so grateful to. And then, once I was certified as an EFT trainer, I started training in Spanish-speaking countries, starting with Mexico, which is-- I felt like I needed to honor my country of birth.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (13:36):
And then I trained therapists in Argentina and in Costa Rica and Panama, and Guatemala, and Spain. And I've trained in Chile, and I've trained in the Dominican Republic. I've even given presentations in the Canary Islands. I mean, it's been an incredible journey that EFT has opened up for me, and that I have had this privilege, this real honor, of seeding EFT in Spanish-speaking countries who now all have, or most have Spanish-speaking local trainers in their own right that learned EFT -- most from me and from others as well -- and have now become EFT trainers for their countries, and it continues to grow. So, EFT is a model that exists around the world. You showed me the, the globe of where your listeners are listening from, and there is EFT in every country I saw marked in your map. So for all of you out there who are listening to this, if you haven't learned emotionally focused therapy, and you get excited and enthusiastic about it by listening to me today, look it up and see if there's someone in your country or in your city that teaches it. You will be blown away by how it transforms and deepens your psychotherapy work.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:16):
I've found that, too, that so many people that are training in EFT are oftentimes therapists that have been doing therapy for like 20 years with couples, and they find EFT, and they're just like, "Wow, this is incredible." Like, just like you're saying in that experience.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (15:31):
Yes. I mean, it becomes like an, uh, a theoretical home.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:35):
Mm-hmm.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (15:36):
For those who are listening and are not therapists, but are interested in learning more about emotionally focused therapy or experiencing emotionally focused therapy, not just as clients, there is also a workshop called Hold Me Tight that is also offered in lots of countries and in lots of languages. So that would be a wonderful way to also experience what EFT is like in a two or three day weekend workshop type.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:02):
Definitely. Now, you were kind of sharing about like the lens of attachment and, you know, kind of seeing the longings. And I know that, you know, that has been something so helpful for me as I've been able to see that and see the process. I don't know if you ever saw the movie "The Matrix", but like, there's one moment where he starts seeing all the ones and zeros coming down, can kind of see through everything and see-- I felt with EFT it took me, it took me about seven years to really, really get it, and then I felt like I could just see through what was happening through...
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (16:32):
The attachment lens.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:33):
Exactly. Through that attachment lens, seeing the process happening. And I think that aspect that you're talking about, like that attachment longing also helps you both understand human behavior in a different way, and also have a lot more empathy and appreciation and non-pathologizing. And when we see and understand, "This is what's driving this dynamic in this couple right now, it's not necessarily this person's borderline, this person's narcissist." That really, again, it's this kind of exactly-- that protest, that panic of, of the disconnect, and really that longing for that connection.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (17:09):
Yes. Well, that was beautifully said, Keith. And, you know, one of the things that I want to add to what you just said about the attachment lens is that it's not just a lens where we see the longings, but because-- but what we're seeing is, well, we are seeing unmet longings, unmet longings. And so what we are then able to see is, a much clearer understanding-- we can see the emotions associated with the unmet longings. What are the longings? The longings are attachment longings. What does that mean? It means a longing to be seen, to be heard, to be understood, to be accepted, to be special, to be held in mind by your partner, to be a priority to your partner, to be loved, to feel important. These are all important human longings that we all have at birth.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (18:19):
We all have them, and we continue to have them throughout our whole lives. And so, when we have these longings to feel safe, to feel secure, to feel that in a moment of need I can turn to my partner and they will be there for me in that moment of need-- I mean, we're not talking about pathological dependence, we're actually talking about healthy interdependence. Where especially in those moments when we need them, we can turn to them and they will be accessible, responsive, and emotionally engaged. Those are the longings that most humans have, and when we have them, but they are not met, they cause pain. So, we can understand when we look through these lenses, these attachment lenses, people's suffering. And also, we see their behavioral reactions, their tendencies to behave in certain ways. So, what's really amazing about this way of seeing human suffering and especially interpersonal suffering, is that we get to see natural human reactions.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (19:29):
And most humans, we fight-- you know-- we shut down, we get quiet, we flee, we get frightened, and sometimes when we feel that sense of disconnection, we get very angry or we get very defensive or we get very quiet. And really, we're not doing a very good job of putting into words what we are longing for, what we need from our partner in that moment, and we feel so often alone, or sad, or scared, or sometimes we feel guilt or shame. And, we don't know what to do with those emotions because we didn't have good models or because our therapist just never even asked about our emotions. They ask about things that we do, or things that we think about, but they don't go for the emotion.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (20:24):
And so the lens helps us see the emotion and the action tendency-- the attachment longing. And that helps us to reflect it, empathize with it, to validate it. And when you do that, and their partner is sitting there listening, they start to see their partner in a different way. Sue Johnson used to say, "Think about emotions as the music in the relationship dance, the dance between intimates, the dance between two romantic partners." And of course, when you meet them in therapy, they're dancing to the soundtrack of some kind of terror film, you know? Some, the movie "Jaws", I'm dating myself, but it's like, "da-da-da da-da-da", and that's what they're dancing to, right? And what she said is like, "If you really want to help them to change their dance, what you need to do is change the melody, change the music. If you change the music, you will change the dance."
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (21:29):
What does that mean? Well, once we help each of them see, once we gift them, each of them, these attachment lenses, and they put them on, and they can see their partner in a new way, aching for connection in their most inadequate human way.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:50):
Those vulnerable parts of themselves are emotions.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (21:53):
Suddenly see those vulnerable parts, and what happens is, they have what we hope is a corrective emotional experience, because they start to view their partner not as dangerous or as uncaring, but as hurting or lonely, and without the skills of knowing how else to react, and without the language to put into words what they're feeling. That's where we come in, is we help put into words what we are understanding is going on in them, and we help them to communicate it with each other in a vulnerable way.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (22:31):
And that is the way to change the music, in order to change the dance. And that's when we see couples begin to, what we call deescalate, right? We see couples fight less or argue less, or have less conflict. Although I want to clarify that deescalation doesn't necessarily ---by "escalation" and therefore "de-escalation", I don't always mean couples who fight, because there's a lot of couples who don't fight, but they just don't connect.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:02):
Yes.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (23:03):
You know, they're both kind of living these kind of quiet, very polite, very nice lives, but they're not deeply connected. They don't ever really talk about their emotions, and they don't really talk about their-- they may not even fully be aware of all of their emotions, but many people are aware of their emotions, but they just don't communicate them with their partner because they're, well, they want to have a nice time, they want to go easy, they want to be-- they're conflict avoidant.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (23:33):
Or simply, they just didn't ever develop that kind of a deeper, closer connection. And so, they know something's missing, they just don't know exactly what it is. And so they come to therapy. So "deescalation" doesn't necessarily mean always a bringing down the volume. It sometimes means helping them to be less disconnected in their quiet way that they're disconnected. And so, that comes from seeing how they react, how they argue, or how they avoid each other in particular moments. This is very much also the case when we talk about sex and when we talk about intimacy and how people have a hard time talking about their sexual desires, or why they feel that they can't connect sexually because they don't feel emotionally connected, and they don't always have the words for it.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (24:35):
And obviously that is a huge area of conflict for many couples. The attachment lens is extremely helpful in the field of sex therapy. And also just in general for couples-- for therapists who are working with couples it can help couples really understand how to improve their sex lives. It is also a really important lens in which to understand the impact that childhood trauma or more recent adult trauma has on their current relationships-- even trauma that wasn't caused by their partner, trauma that was caused in childhood or by others in adulthood. But it's especially helpful when we also are working with the trauma of infidelity, for example. And of course, in that situation, we see you know, obvious huge disconnection. And emotionally focused therapy is an incredibly helpful model to help couples understand the impact that that has had on their relationship, and it helps them to decide whether they want to repair and reconciliate or they want to just part ways.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (25:58):
But it's a-- it is the best studied, most empirically validated approach to couples therapy worldwide. We have also now successfully completed a multi-site, multinational, controlled study with readily assigned couples to a control group and a treatment group for Spanish-speaking clients and for Spanish-speaking couples, and having EFT therapy with their Spanish-speaking EFT therapists. So, it is really something that is continuing to grow and it's continuing to expand in, at least in Latin America, it is definitely growing at rapid rate.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (26:55):
Yeah, and I'm interested to hear more about the work in Latin America and Spanish-speaking countries' cultures. And what have you noticed? Or has there been differences -- you know, you were talking earlier about the kind of idea about the healthy interdependence, and I know that there's some particular approaches that are more focused on individuation of the couple, and then kind of strengthening the relationship. And I was talking to Sue at the externship I went to about some of this, and she was saying that, you know, "No better way to increase, you know, insecure attachment'" then kind of saying, "Oh, you need to go work on yourself separately." She was saying that, but through the secure attachment, we develop healthy individuation or healthy interdependence through actual secure attachment. And I'm curious about what attachment-- is there any differences culturally around attachment? Because I know there's also differences around individuation, about connection, about interdependence in different-
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (28:01):
Absolutely. I mean, look, what a, what a huge question you're asking, and it's a beautiful question. There are important cultural differences to be aware of, absolutely. But EFT's attachment-based foundation is cross-cultural at its core, because what we're talking about is the human need -- universal need -- for safe connection And yet, attachment bond exists across cultures-- protest behaviors like withdrawing or pursuing happen globally when connection feels threatened. And of course, all human beings experience vulnerability, shame, longing, and fears of abandonment. So, in this sense, EFT works across cultures because it speaks to a shared emotional, you know root, right? Emotional logic is rooted in our evolutionary need for connection and for safe connection. But what you're talking about are those differences, you know, where culture really makes a difference. Did you, were you going to add something?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (29:13):
I was going to say too, that, you know, because EFT is process-oriented, and it's not necessarily content oriented, which also makes it very helpful in working with clients of various cultures, sexual orientations, gender identity, and so on. The consequence of the difficulties that they may be facing, either within the relationship or from outside the relationship may be different, but the dance, that process, is oftentimes the same, because again, like you're saying that the root of it is those attachment...
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (29:44):
I'll speak to this broadly and then I'll speak more specifically to Latin Americans or Spanish speaking countries. I mean when I think about-- people ask me this question all the time as to, "How is it different? Is EFT different culturally?" And I would say that one area in which I see differences is in the expression of emotion. You can imagine in North America or in Northern Europe, like Western Europe, emotions, especially personal vulnerability,, are often seen as legitimate or even necessary forms of intimacy-- right? These are individualist cultures. In collectivist cultures, in many Asian, African, and Latin American cultures, expressing strong emotion, especially negative emotion may be seen as disruptive or disrespectful or shameful, and you often won't see the same kind of outward expression.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (30:54):
So this has clinical implications. In some cultures, a client may feel shame or guilt just for expressing sadness or need, or having needs, or expressing anger, even in intimate relationships. By the way, there are also some northern European countries where this is true. So, I don't want to generalize to all of Europe. The therapist may need to like, slow down their emotional work and validate the cultural values and frame vulnerability as a strength, and not as a weakness as Brene Brown likes to remind us. There's also some other cultural differences that have to do with gender roles or family hierarchy. You know, many define-- in some cultures there are different expectations for emotional openness and for caregiving and for decision making. For example, there's many patriarchal cultures where men may struggle even more with accessing vulnerable emotions, or women may feel pressured to suppress their needs and their emotional needs in order to maintain harmony, right? So the clinical implications of that is that the EFT therapist must be then sensitive to cultural values around duty, hierarchy, emotional restraint, while still helping clients explore and share their attachment needs in culturally respectful ways. You know, there's another area that I want to mention on a broad, general way, which is the concept of self. Like Western models often assume a differentiated self, you know, an individual itself or individuals are encouraged to pursue autonomy and individuation. Right? And in interdependent cultures, the self is more defined through family, through tradition, and through social roles. And, you know, EFT--- before I talk about the Spanish-speaking countries-- EFT believes that we get to individuation and differentiation, but we get there through a more secure attachment.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (33:10):
Once we know that we are not alone in the world, then we can take distance from-- we can take risks, we can distance -- not distance, physically distance -- but we can differentiate or individuate. That means we can take steps toward growing, transforming, taking risks, changing jobs, learning new languages, saying no to our partner. It's easier to say no to our partner about something they want when we feel safe in our connection to say no. Right? So, we feel that gaining security is always first before we become more individuated and differentiated. But there are distinct cultural patterns among Latin Americans that shape how attachment dynamics show up in therapy, and they have important implications for practice. You know, Latin America-- when you think about Latin America or Spanish-speaking countries -- because we have to include Spain and other nations where Spanish is spoken -- it's so diverse and multifaceted with differences across countries, regions, class migration, history.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (34:24):
There are some common cultural themes that shape emotional expression. There's some relational norms, there's some therapeutic-- you know, and there's some ways in which we all engage therapeutically in similar ways. But, you know, Latino cultures generally value emotional expressiveness. They generally value physical affection and closeness in relationships. There's often a cultural expectation that family members will be emotionally involved in one another's lives. That's different than in some North American cultures. Right? And this closeness can be a resource in therapy. You know, many clients resonate naturally with the language of love and longing and connection.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (35:10):
I actually have found, Keith, it's been really interesting, sometimes it's the men in some of my experiences with, with Latin Americans who actually -- because they trust me, and because we're doing some good deep work -- who start to use the language of emotion, and they show their vulnerability, and it often scares their partners if they're in a straight relationship. If they're a heterosexual couple, oftentimes the women might say "This is uncomfortable for me because I usually think of man as strong and unemotional, So to see him emotional, I don't know what to do with that, because it makes me feel like maybe I'm not going to be as protected." Because they think about vulnerability as weakness, and so it takes a while for the therapist think about, to be able to actually like psychoeducationally teach them, like, "No, actually this is beautiful. This is strength. You know how many forces and socialization your partner is having to break through right now. The amount of strength that it takes to be able to do what he's doing right now-- opening up in this way, this is absolute strength, not weakness at all," you know? So that is something that I think is, is important to think about.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (36:48):
They resonate naturally with the language of love and longing and connection and I think more and more, there's greater permission for men to feel and to express their emotions in Latino cultures. Now, there's also something in Latin countries called "familismo", which is about loyalty to family above all. So the value of loyalty obligation, there's a certain interdependence within the extended family -- that's really central. So couples may involve their parents and their siblings and their children in their emotional struggles. I know of couples where a partner-- one partner will call their partner's parents and complain about their son, right? I think we would find that quite strange in North America if we saw that, we would think like, "That is so odd," but in other cultures, it wouldn't be odd at all.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (37:54):
So in therapy, couples may struggle to prioritize the couple-bond over extended family obligations. Attachment needs may be obscured by role-based loyalty leading-- so that may lead to some avoidance or some caretaking patterns. So, you know, what do therapists need to do? They, well, they need to normalize couple-focused work and validate both attachment needs and family ties. Validate both, and choose to work with the part that is coming up. And so, not to Westernize them at all. We have to be very careful to not try to inculcate our Northern hemisphere values on these more Southern hemisphere or Central American cultures. But we want to be able to incorporate what we know about those traditional gender roles, because they're still very influential.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (39:03):
You know, men may be raised to suppress vulnerability. They may equate emotional expression with weakness, as we said. Well, you know, women may be socialized into self-sacrificing roles. You know the opposite of machismo is known as "marianismo", which is what women do when they are socialized into more self-sacrificing roles. Withdrawn men may show high reactivity, but then they shut down when asked about softer feelings, right? So when we're working with men, withdrawn men, we need to help them access emotion, and that requires extra care with things like shame or language that affirms their dignity. Women who are more anxiously attached, and we in EFT call them more pursuers or more highly or harshly critical, they may be harshly critical out of desperation, out of despair, out of loneliness, which we see that in all cultures. But also they struggle with guilt or fear of being too much.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (40:10):
So what does an EFT therapist need to do? We need to use culturally attuned reframes. We think of vulnerability as "valentia", courage, asking for love as "dignidad", dignity, not weakness, you know? And, and then there's the other factor, which is very important, and we all have to, you know, be aware of it too, is religiosity and moral framing. Catholicism and other religious traditions may shape clients' moral views on suffering, on fidelity, on family roles, and on forgiveness. So some may see emotional struggle as a spiritual failure in some situations.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:55):
Yeah, definitely all these kind of different aspects of what plays in. And that, that forgiveness piece, I think is also really interesting. I'd be interested in what that looks like culturally. And you and Michelle Gannon both did a podcast years ago, an interview on apologies. It's something that I still give to my clients. And it's really been a wonderful frame. And I'd love to see, if you wouldn't mind kind of speaking a little bit on that in general, and then how that plays out in, in cross-cultural.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (41:31):
I always have fun when I speak about forgiveness, when I start talking about apologies, because most people make these just terrible apologies, right? And we can spend a while laughing at the types of apologies that people say things like, "I'm sorry," is not a full sentence. You have to say more than just, "I'm sorry," or "I'm sorry you feel that way", or "I'm sorry you took it that way". Like, these are terrible apologies, you know? But let's get more serious, in EFT, forgiveness is not the goal, forgiveness is the byproduct of emotional healing. What needs to be forgiven is not just a behavior, but what we call an attachment injury -- that's a moment when one partner was deeply, deeply hurt or let down or left alone or abandoned in a particular moment of need and that's when the bond suddenly feels unsafe.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (42:43):
These kinds of injuries, they rupture the emotional bond, and so forgiveness restores it, that's the goal. Attachment injuries must be processed, you know, they're not resolved by an apology alone. The apology is almost like the final step. In a whole process of exploring the impact of the injury, exploring the emotional impact of the injury itself, and giving people the space to speak about the injury, as well as giving the injure-ing partner -- if it's an attachment injury --the space to contextualize, to contextualize and understand what was going on inside of them that led them to engage in a particular injurious behavior.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (43:42):
Yes, go ahead.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:43):
I was going to say, yeah, in some ways I think about it too is that the injured party oftentimes needs to feel like the other party understands.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (43:53):
Exactly where I was going-
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:56):
Deep level that like, because if they feel like they truly understand and they can empathize and get how hurtful, painful, then they're less likely to potentially do that again and feeling safer.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (44:08):
Absolutely. This, I learned from one of my teachers and mentors, Brent Bradley, who used to say that, "when the hurt person can see in the eyes of the person who hurt them, that their pain hurts them too, then they can start to forgive. Because only when the injured partner feels, felt when their pain is received with care and attunement can healing begin." But they need to see it reflected. So that's why words are insufficient, that's why words are insufficient. It really needs to involve being able to tolerate. It involves the injuring partner being able to tolerate hearing about the hurt that they caused, including being asked about all the details associated with that. And they are forced to move through the injury of their injured partner, and as they do that, they start to connect empathically to the pain that they caused, and they too can start to feel-- well, like, almost like their eyes are opened for what pain they have caused-- and they can start to drop into an empathic response. When they can do that, that's when forgiveness is even possible.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (45:47):
Definitely. Well, you're doing such incredible work. I'm just so appreciative and I learned so much from you, and you're just one of the warmest people that I know just kind of radiating that, and so EFT is just such a perfect kind of place for you. And I want to kind of mention too, for folks that are interested in learning more, you have co-authored the Deliberate Practice book on Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy where in deliberate practice-- we actually did interview with Tony about really having therapists practicing these different techniques with each other. Also I know you've got some, some trainings that you're doing. You were mentioning there's gonna be an externship in San Diego and you were saying that folks could go to your drsamjinich.com. I'll also link these on in your bio or ICEEFT, the International EFT Community that has a list. Then there's also the San Francisco Center for https://sfceft.com/ to check out the different trainings and the work you're doing and so on.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (47:13):
Yes, yes. Well, I'm so glad you mentioned it. You will post at some point the the links to my website and how to find out about future trainings, both in Spanish-speaking countries and in the United States. And we will definitely let you know how to access more about Emotionally Focused Therapy. If you're interested in Deliberate Practice, we will put a link to how you can get that book as well.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:47):
Definitely. Yeah. And for those that aren't therapists, you know, and, and therapists too. There's always the Hold Me Tight book by Sue Johnson for couples, which is something I refer to every couple that I work with that really, I think, you know, helps sometimes oftentimes give language to one's experience and really helping kind of that process of the attachment language and seeing things in a different way. So there's so many great resources out there. Thank you so much, Sam. I really appreciate your time. This is wonderful today.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (48:18):
I am so appreciative of you, Keith. You have been someone who has helped bring EFT to so many people, not only in the Bay Area, but really around the country and the world with your interest in it, with your focus on it, and the way that you have actually integrated it into your theoretical interests. And you have been a very important, important voice in the field of, of EFT and in helping to really extend its reach. So I actually appreciate you very much, and thank you for this interview.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (48:55):
Thanks. Great. Well, take care. Bye-Bye.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (48:59):
Bye. Thank you very much.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (49:00):
Thank you for joining us today. If you'd like to receive continuing education credits for the podcast you just listened to, please go to therapyonthecuttingedge.com and click on the link for CE. Our podcast is brought to you by the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, where we provide trainings for therapists in evidence-based models through live and online workshops, on-demand workshops, consultation groups, and online one-way mirror trainings. To learn more about our trainings and treatment for children, adolescents, families, couples, and individual adults, with our licensed experienced therapists in-person in the Bay Area, or throughout California online, and our employment opportunities, go to sfiap.com. To learn more about our associateships and psych assistantships and low fee treatment through our nonprofit Bay Area Community Counseling and Family Institute of Berkeley, go to sf-bacc.org and familyinstituteofberkeley.com. If you'd like to support therapy for those in financial need and training and evidence-based treatments, you can donate by going to BACC’s website at sfbacc.org. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit so all donations are tax deductible. Also, we really appreciate your feedback. If you have something you're interested in, something that's on the cutting edge of the field of psychotherapy, and you think therapists out there should know about it, send us an email. We're always looking for advancements in the field of psychotherapy to create lasting change for our clients.
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advances in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. At the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, we provide training in evidence-based models, including family systems, cognitive behavioral therapy, emotionally focused couples therapy, eye movement desensitization reprocessing, motivational interviewing, and other approaches through live in-person and online trainings, on demand trainings, consultation groups, and one-way mirror trainings. We also have therapists throughout the Bay Area and California providing treatment through our six specialty centers, each grounded in an evidence-based approach, with our Lifespan Centers, Center for Children and Center for Adolescents, where all the therapists are working systemically; our Center for Couples, where all the therapists are using emotionally focused couples therapy; and our specialty issue centers, our Center for Anxiety, where all the therapists are using CBT and EMDR for trauma; and our center for ADHD and oppositional and Conduct Disorder clinic, where we're integrating those four approaches.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (01:31):
In the institute, we have our licensed, experienced therapists, and for those in financial need, we have an associated nonprofit, Bay Area Community Counseling, where clients can work with associates, psych assistants, and licensed clinicians who are developing their abilities and expertise. Additionally, as part of our nonprofit, we also have the Family Institute of Berkeley, where we provide treatment, training, and one-way mirror trainings in family systems. To learn more about trainings, treatment, and employment opportunities, please go to sfiap.com and to support our nonprofit, you can go to sf-bacc.org to donate today to support access to therapy for those in financial need, as well as training in evidence-based treatment. BACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (02:19):
Today I'll be speaking with Dr. Sam Jinich, who's a clinical psychologist in private practice, licensed in California since 1995, and currently based in Buenos Aires, Argentina. He's an internationally recognized, emotionally focused therapy trainer, supervisor, and certified couples therapist endorsed by the International Center for Excellence in Emotionally Focused Therapy. Sam teaches EFT to therapists across the globe in English and Spanish. In North America, his trainings feature English language didactic presentations with the option of bilingual experiential role plays, reflecting his belief that Latinx bilingual therapists should learn in the language they are most comfortable with while deliberately practicing in the language they use clinically. A respected leader in the EFT community, Sam co-founded the Northern California community for EFT and served as its EFT trainer until 2025. He is also a past president of the San Francisco Psychological Association. Over nearly three decades, he has trained thousands of therapists, taught at multiple universities, published scientific research on trauma and family dynamics, and co-authored the APA book, Deliberate Practice in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. Sam is the clinical director for the San Francisco Consultancy and Emotionally Focused Therapy. Let's listen to the interview.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:35):
Well, hi, Sam. Welcome.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (03:38):
Hi, Keith. So nice to be with you today. Thanks for the invite.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (03:42):
Definitely. It's so great to see you again. It's been forever. So Sam, I know of your work particularly in the EFT community emotionally focused couples therapy. You had actually taught some workshops for my institute and then actually supervised me and, and ran our one-way mirror training and actually supervised me as a supervisor getting certified in EFT. And I know that you went on to become an EFT trainer and have also been doing trainings you know, in in different countries and so on. So I really want to hear about kinda all the work that you've been doing. But first let me start off and, and find out about, I always like to find out, you know, kind of how did you get to doing what you're doing? What was kind of the evolution of your thinking that got you where you are today?
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (04:29):
Yeah, no, it's a really, it's a really good question and one that I really have to mostly thank my clients for how they led me to want to do more than I was already doing. My path to emotionally focused therapy-- it was not a straight line. I was interested in all kinds of modalities. I would go to all kinds of conference, I would go to every conference. I was always interested in couples. From the very time that I went into graduate school, I was always drawn to working with couples. And I went and learned every different kind of model of therapy for couples therapy that you can, that you can find. And I was, after every single one, I was excited about what I was learning, and I would go straight back into my into my practice and try everything that I had learned.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (05:22):
And I was always like very enthusiastic. But over time there was a gradual unfolding or a convergence of personal curiosity, clinical frustration, and a deepening interest in the science of human connection. In the early stages of my clinical work, I was drawn to evidence-based practices, various, you know, more symptom focused models. I actually, in graduate school learned cognitive behavioral approaches. And I also -- prior to my doctorate program -- I mean, my master's program I learned family systems, systemic therapy, and I found cognitive and behavioral approaches provided very helpful tools. But over time, I noticed a gap in my work, many of my clients started to give me some feedback, which is why I am so eternally grateful to them. That they were finding that some of the work that we were doing wasn't going deep enough.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (06:24):
And after a few times of hearing that, those words, I was like, hang on. I mean, I'm doing everything that I was supposed to. I'm doing everything I've learned to do, and yet I'm, I'm hearing this from a few of my, my dearest clients who I felt like, "Hey, here we are. We're rolling, we're doing good work." And so I mean, my clients were speaking about their patterns, even spoke insightfully about their issues. But things were not always changing in their relationships. And I began to wonder, like, "Why doesn't insight alone lead to transformation?" And so my turning point came when, well, I asked myself, "What exactly does it mean to do deeper therapy, to do deeper emotional work?" And I think my turning point came when I began reading about attachment theory.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (07:22):
Not just as a developmental psychology, but as a real living map for adult relationships. John Bowlby's ideas lit a spark in me. And then something else happened, which was 9-11 occurred in the United States -- the attack on the World Trade Center towers -- and there was all this trauma widely felt in my community and in my country. And I saw, once the world was starting to, once the US was starting to allow us to travel again, and things started to kind of feel like we were returning to some kind of normalcy, there was a workshop, a training, an all day training offered by someone called Sue Johnson down in Irvine, California. And I had never heard her speak. This was in 2001. So, I started to hear about - I started to hear her ideas, and it, and it was... it was all about relationships and all about attachment and Bowlby and love.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (08:39):
She actually mentioned the word love, which I had never heard of in my graduate program whenever I took any couples therapy classes, no one ever spoke about love. They just talked about how to improve communication skills, or how to help couples negotiate their differences better. And it was never really touching-- never getting really to the heart of the matter. So when I discovered Sue Johnson's work, everything started to click. Emotionally focused therapy didn't just talk about attachment, it showed how to work with it in the therapy room -- how to not only work with attachment and thinking systemically, but how to work with emotions. Suddenly the distance between theory and practice is narrowed...I saw how couples' distress was often a protest against emotional disconnection, which is one of the first things that I learned.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (09:33):
And I loved to think about distress and conflict as a form of emotional disconnection that couples protest in their particular way. Their conflicts weren't just random, they were patterned. And those patterns then were driven by longings for security, for responsiveness, for safe emotional engagement, for accessibility. Right? So learning EFT just changed my stance as a therapist. Instead of trying to referee or fix communication, I began tuning into the emotional music, beneath the words. I listened for protest, for fear, for longings. You know, I saw that helping clients access and share their most vulnerable feelings with each other was the heart of transformation. So not just symptom relief, but repair and reconnection. And so, it just started to really resonate with me-- it shaped me as a therapist, it resonated with my personal journey.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (10:35):
It changed me as a human. And I just started... I'm an enthusiastic person in general, but I was just fascinated by this thing. And then I started trying it out, which is really something about emotionally focused therapy, is that as soon as you learn it, you can try it, you can start using it, and you will see an immediate shift in how your therapy goes and how you feel as a therapist. And you feel so good, you feel so effective. I mean, I started to feel like I was finally able to really help. And my couples -- I am eternally grateful to my couples for how they led me to EFT, and also for how they continue every day to teach me more and more about emotionally focused therapy and about emotions and human connection. You know, to me, EFT is not just a model. It is a lens through which I can understand human beings and their reactions much better.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (11:33):
I have my -- well, no one can see this, but I'm actually, I wear glasses -- but I think of my glasses as these attachment lenses in which I see the way that people relate to each other, interact with each other through these attachment lenses. And it helps me to feel great-- much, much greater empathy for both people's experiences and perspectives. I also have found it to be extremely helpful when understanding how trauma plays a role in people's lives and in people's relationships. And so I loved EFT and I became an EFT therapist, and I became an EFT supervisor. And then I was invited by Dr. Sue Johnson to be an EFT trainer. Which it took me a while to accept her offer. It took her a few attempts asking me, because I just didn't feel like I could be a trainer or teacher of something that I was still just learning. You know, like, I felt like, "No, I have to feel really good at it and really confident in it until..."
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (12:45):
But because I am originally born and raised in Mexico City, I'm bilingual, bicultural. She was really interested in my helping her to bring EFT into the Spanish-speaking world. Right? And so, given that I was born in Mexico City-- well, first I accepted her invitation to be a trainer, and I was trained to be an EFT trainer by both Dr. Sue Johnson. And my other mentors were Jim Furrow and Lisa Palmer-Olson, and-- who I'm also so grateful to. And then, once I was certified as an EFT trainer, I started training in Spanish-speaking countries, starting with Mexico, which is-- I felt like I needed to honor my country of birth.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (13:36):
And then I trained therapists in Argentina and in Costa Rica and Panama, and Guatemala, and Spain. And I've trained in Chile, and I've trained in the Dominican Republic. I've even given presentations in the Canary Islands. I mean, it's been an incredible journey that EFT has opened up for me, and that I have had this privilege, this real honor, of seeding EFT in Spanish-speaking countries who now all have, or most have Spanish-speaking local trainers in their own right that learned EFT -- most from me and from others as well -- and have now become EFT trainers for their countries, and it continues to grow. So, EFT is a model that exists around the world. You showed me the, the globe of where your listeners are listening from, and there is EFT in every country I saw marked in your map. So for all of you out there who are listening to this, if you haven't learned emotionally focused therapy, and you get excited and enthusiastic about it by listening to me today, look it up and see if there's someone in your country or in your city that teaches it. You will be blown away by how it transforms and deepens your psychotherapy work.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:16):
I've found that, too, that so many people that are training in EFT are oftentimes therapists that have been doing therapy for like 20 years with couples, and they find EFT, and they're just like, "Wow, this is incredible." Like, just like you're saying in that experience.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (15:31):
Yes. I mean, it becomes like an, uh, a theoretical home.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (15:35):
Mm-hmm.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (15:36):
For those who are listening and are not therapists, but are interested in learning more about emotionally focused therapy or experiencing emotionally focused therapy, not just as clients, there is also a workshop called Hold Me Tight that is also offered in lots of countries and in lots of languages. So that would be a wonderful way to also experience what EFT is like in a two or three day weekend workshop type.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:02):
Definitely. Now, you were kind of sharing about like the lens of attachment and, you know, kind of seeing the longings. And I know that, you know, that has been something so helpful for me as I've been able to see that and see the process. I don't know if you ever saw the movie "The Matrix", but like, there's one moment where he starts seeing all the ones and zeros coming down, can kind of see through everything and see-- I felt with EFT it took me, it took me about seven years to really, really get it, and then I felt like I could just see through what was happening through...
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (16:32):
The attachment lens.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (16:33):
Exactly. Through that attachment lens, seeing the process happening. And I think that aspect that you're talking about, like that attachment longing also helps you both understand human behavior in a different way, and also have a lot more empathy and appreciation and non-pathologizing. And when we see and understand, "This is what's driving this dynamic in this couple right now, it's not necessarily this person's borderline, this person's narcissist." That really, again, it's this kind of exactly-- that protest, that panic of, of the disconnect, and really that longing for that connection.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (17:09):
Yes. Well, that was beautifully said, Keith. And, you know, one of the things that I want to add to what you just said about the attachment lens is that it's not just a lens where we see the longings, but because-- but what we're seeing is, well, we are seeing unmet longings, unmet longings. And so what we are then able to see is, a much clearer understanding-- we can see the emotions associated with the unmet longings. What are the longings? The longings are attachment longings. What does that mean? It means a longing to be seen, to be heard, to be understood, to be accepted, to be special, to be held in mind by your partner, to be a priority to your partner, to be loved, to feel important. These are all important human longings that we all have at birth.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (18:19):
We all have them, and we continue to have them throughout our whole lives. And so, when we have these longings to feel safe, to feel secure, to feel that in a moment of need I can turn to my partner and they will be there for me in that moment of need-- I mean, we're not talking about pathological dependence, we're actually talking about healthy interdependence. Where especially in those moments when we need them, we can turn to them and they will be accessible, responsive, and emotionally engaged. Those are the longings that most humans have, and when we have them, but they are not met, they cause pain. So, we can understand when we look through these lenses, these attachment lenses, people's suffering. And also, we see their behavioral reactions, their tendencies to behave in certain ways. So, what's really amazing about this way of seeing human suffering and especially interpersonal suffering, is that we get to see natural human reactions.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (19:29):
And most humans, we fight-- you know-- we shut down, we get quiet, we flee, we get frightened, and sometimes when we feel that sense of disconnection, we get very angry or we get very defensive or we get very quiet. And really, we're not doing a very good job of putting into words what we are longing for, what we need from our partner in that moment, and we feel so often alone, or sad, or scared, or sometimes we feel guilt or shame. And, we don't know what to do with those emotions because we didn't have good models or because our therapist just never even asked about our emotions. They ask about things that we do, or things that we think about, but they don't go for the emotion.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (20:24):
And so the lens helps us see the emotion and the action tendency-- the attachment longing. And that helps us to reflect it, empathize with it, to validate it. And when you do that, and their partner is sitting there listening, they start to see their partner in a different way. Sue Johnson used to say, "Think about emotions as the music in the relationship dance, the dance between intimates, the dance between two romantic partners." And of course, when you meet them in therapy, they're dancing to the soundtrack of some kind of terror film, you know? Some, the movie "Jaws", I'm dating myself, but it's like, "da-da-da da-da-da", and that's what they're dancing to, right? And what she said is like, "If you really want to help them to change their dance, what you need to do is change the melody, change the music. If you change the music, you will change the dance."
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (21:29):
What does that mean? Well, once we help each of them see, once we gift them, each of them, these attachment lenses, and they put them on, and they can see their partner in a new way, aching for connection in their most inadequate human way.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (21:50):
Those vulnerable parts of themselves are emotions.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (21:53):
Suddenly see those vulnerable parts, and what happens is, they have what we hope is a corrective emotional experience, because they start to view their partner not as dangerous or as uncaring, but as hurting or lonely, and without the skills of knowing how else to react, and without the language to put into words what they're feeling. That's where we come in, is we help put into words what we are understanding is going on in them, and we help them to communicate it with each other in a vulnerable way.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (22:31):
And that is the way to change the music, in order to change the dance. And that's when we see couples begin to, what we call deescalate, right? We see couples fight less or argue less, or have less conflict. Although I want to clarify that deescalation doesn't necessarily ---by "escalation" and therefore "de-escalation", I don't always mean couples who fight, because there's a lot of couples who don't fight, but they just don't connect.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (23:02):
Yes.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (23:03):
You know, they're both kind of living these kind of quiet, very polite, very nice lives, but they're not deeply connected. They don't ever really talk about their emotions, and they don't really talk about their-- they may not even fully be aware of all of their emotions, but many people are aware of their emotions, but they just don't communicate them with their partner because they're, well, they want to have a nice time, they want to go easy, they want to be-- they're conflict avoidant.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (23:33):
Or simply, they just didn't ever develop that kind of a deeper, closer connection. And so, they know something's missing, they just don't know exactly what it is. And so they come to therapy. So "deescalation" doesn't necessarily mean always a bringing down the volume. It sometimes means helping them to be less disconnected in their quiet way that they're disconnected. And so, that comes from seeing how they react, how they argue, or how they avoid each other in particular moments. This is very much also the case when we talk about sex and when we talk about intimacy and how people have a hard time talking about their sexual desires, or why they feel that they can't connect sexually because they don't feel emotionally connected, and they don't always have the words for it.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (24:35):
And obviously that is a huge area of conflict for many couples. The attachment lens is extremely helpful in the field of sex therapy. And also just in general for couples-- for therapists who are working with couples it can help couples really understand how to improve their sex lives. It is also a really important lens in which to understand the impact that childhood trauma or more recent adult trauma has on their current relationships-- even trauma that wasn't caused by their partner, trauma that was caused in childhood or by others in adulthood. But it's especially helpful when we also are working with the trauma of infidelity, for example. And of course, in that situation, we see you know, obvious huge disconnection. And emotionally focused therapy is an incredibly helpful model to help couples understand the impact that that has had on their relationship, and it helps them to decide whether they want to repair and reconciliate or they want to just part ways.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (25:58):
But it's a-- it is the best studied, most empirically validated approach to couples therapy worldwide. We have also now successfully completed a multi-site, multinational, controlled study with readily assigned couples to a control group and a treatment group for Spanish-speaking clients and for Spanish-speaking couples, and having EFT therapy with their Spanish-speaking EFT therapists. So, it is really something that is continuing to grow and it's continuing to expand in, at least in Latin America, it is definitely growing at rapid rate.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (26:55):
Yeah, and I'm interested to hear more about the work in Latin America and Spanish-speaking countries' cultures. And what have you noticed? Or has there been differences -- you know, you were talking earlier about the kind of idea about the healthy interdependence, and I know that there's some particular approaches that are more focused on individuation of the couple, and then kind of strengthening the relationship. And I was talking to Sue at the externship I went to about some of this, and she was saying that, you know, "No better way to increase, you know, insecure attachment'" then kind of saying, "Oh, you need to go work on yourself separately." She was saying that, but through the secure attachment, we develop healthy individuation or healthy interdependence through actual secure attachment. And I'm curious about what attachment-- is there any differences culturally around attachment? Because I know there's also differences around individuation, about connection, about interdependence in different-
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (28:01):
Absolutely. I mean, look, what a, what a huge question you're asking, and it's a beautiful question. There are important cultural differences to be aware of, absolutely. But EFT's attachment-based foundation is cross-cultural at its core, because what we're talking about is the human need -- universal need -- for safe connection And yet, attachment bond exists across cultures-- protest behaviors like withdrawing or pursuing happen globally when connection feels threatened. And of course, all human beings experience vulnerability, shame, longing, and fears of abandonment. So, in this sense, EFT works across cultures because it speaks to a shared emotional, you know root, right? Emotional logic is rooted in our evolutionary need for connection and for safe connection. But what you're talking about are those differences, you know, where culture really makes a difference. Did you, were you going to add something?
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (29:13):
I was going to say too, that, you know, because EFT is process-oriented, and it's not necessarily content oriented, which also makes it very helpful in working with clients of various cultures, sexual orientations, gender identity, and so on. The consequence of the difficulties that they may be facing, either within the relationship or from outside the relationship may be different, but the dance, that process, is oftentimes the same, because again, like you're saying that the root of it is those attachment...
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (29:44):
I'll speak to this broadly and then I'll speak more specifically to Latin Americans or Spanish speaking countries. I mean when I think about-- people ask me this question all the time as to, "How is it different? Is EFT different culturally?" And I would say that one area in which I see differences is in the expression of emotion. You can imagine in North America or in Northern Europe, like Western Europe, emotions, especially personal vulnerability,, are often seen as legitimate or even necessary forms of intimacy-- right? These are individualist cultures. In collectivist cultures, in many Asian, African, and Latin American cultures, expressing strong emotion, especially negative emotion may be seen as disruptive or disrespectful or shameful, and you often won't see the same kind of outward expression.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (30:54):
So this has clinical implications. In some cultures, a client may feel shame or guilt just for expressing sadness or need, or having needs, or expressing anger, even in intimate relationships. By the way, there are also some northern European countries where this is true. So, I don't want to generalize to all of Europe. The therapist may need to like, slow down their emotional work and validate the cultural values and frame vulnerability as a strength, and not as a weakness as Brene Brown likes to remind us. There's also some other cultural differences that have to do with gender roles or family hierarchy. You know, many define-- in some cultures there are different expectations for emotional openness and for caregiving and for decision making. For example, there's many patriarchal cultures where men may struggle even more with accessing vulnerable emotions, or women may feel pressured to suppress their needs and their emotional needs in order to maintain harmony, right? So the clinical implications of that is that the EFT therapist must be then sensitive to cultural values around duty, hierarchy, emotional restraint, while still helping clients explore and share their attachment needs in culturally respectful ways. You know, there's another area that I want to mention on a broad, general way, which is the concept of self. Like Western models often assume a differentiated self, you know, an individual itself or individuals are encouraged to pursue autonomy and individuation. Right? And in interdependent cultures, the self is more defined through family, through tradition, and through social roles. And, you know, EFT--- before I talk about the Spanish-speaking countries-- EFT believes that we get to individuation and differentiation, but we get there through a more secure attachment.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (33:10):
Once we know that we are not alone in the world, then we can take distance from-- we can take risks, we can distance -- not distance, physically distance -- but we can differentiate or individuate. That means we can take steps toward growing, transforming, taking risks, changing jobs, learning new languages, saying no to our partner. It's easier to say no to our partner about something they want when we feel safe in our connection to say no. Right? So, we feel that gaining security is always first before we become more individuated and differentiated. But there are distinct cultural patterns among Latin Americans that shape how attachment dynamics show up in therapy, and they have important implications for practice. You know, Latin America-- when you think about Latin America or Spanish-speaking countries -- because we have to include Spain and other nations where Spanish is spoken -- it's so diverse and multifaceted with differences across countries, regions, class migration, history.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (34:24):
There are some common cultural themes that shape emotional expression. There's some relational norms, there's some therapeutic-- you know, and there's some ways in which we all engage therapeutically in similar ways. But, you know, Latino cultures generally value emotional expressiveness. They generally value physical affection and closeness in relationships. There's often a cultural expectation that family members will be emotionally involved in one another's lives. That's different than in some North American cultures. Right? And this closeness can be a resource in therapy. You know, many clients resonate naturally with the language of love and longing and connection.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (35:10):
I actually have found, Keith, it's been really interesting, sometimes it's the men in some of my experiences with, with Latin Americans who actually -- because they trust me, and because we're doing some good deep work -- who start to use the language of emotion, and they show their vulnerability, and it often scares their partners if they're in a straight relationship. If they're a heterosexual couple, oftentimes the women might say "This is uncomfortable for me because I usually think of man as strong and unemotional, So to see him emotional, I don't know what to do with that, because it makes me feel like maybe I'm not going to be as protected." Because they think about vulnerability as weakness, and so it takes a while for the therapist think about, to be able to actually like psychoeducationally teach them, like, "No, actually this is beautiful. This is strength. You know how many forces and socialization your partner is having to break through right now. The amount of strength that it takes to be able to do what he's doing right now-- opening up in this way, this is absolute strength, not weakness at all," you know? So that is something that I think is, is important to think about.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (36:48):
They resonate naturally with the language of love and longing and connection and I think more and more, there's greater permission for men to feel and to express their emotions in Latino cultures. Now, there's also something in Latin countries called "familismo", which is about loyalty to family above all. So the value of loyalty obligation, there's a certain interdependence within the extended family -- that's really central. So couples may involve their parents and their siblings and their children in their emotional struggles. I know of couples where a partner-- one partner will call their partner's parents and complain about their son, right? I think we would find that quite strange in North America if we saw that, we would think like, "That is so odd," but in other cultures, it wouldn't be odd at all.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (37:54):
So in therapy, couples may struggle to prioritize the couple-bond over extended family obligations. Attachment needs may be obscured by role-based loyalty leading-- so that may lead to some avoidance or some caretaking patterns. So, you know, what do therapists need to do? They, well, they need to normalize couple-focused work and validate both attachment needs and family ties. Validate both, and choose to work with the part that is coming up. And so, not to Westernize them at all. We have to be very careful to not try to inculcate our Northern hemisphere values on these more Southern hemisphere or Central American cultures. But we want to be able to incorporate what we know about those traditional gender roles, because they're still very influential.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (39:03):
You know, men may be raised to suppress vulnerability. They may equate emotional expression with weakness, as we said. Well, you know, women may be socialized into self-sacrificing roles. You know the opposite of machismo is known as "marianismo", which is what women do when they are socialized into more self-sacrificing roles. Withdrawn men may show high reactivity, but then they shut down when asked about softer feelings, right? So when we're working with men, withdrawn men, we need to help them access emotion, and that requires extra care with things like shame or language that affirms their dignity. Women who are more anxiously attached, and we in EFT call them more pursuers or more highly or harshly critical, they may be harshly critical out of desperation, out of despair, out of loneliness, which we see that in all cultures. But also they struggle with guilt or fear of being too much.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (40:10):
So what does an EFT therapist need to do? We need to use culturally attuned reframes. We think of vulnerability as "valentia", courage, asking for love as "dignidad", dignity, not weakness, you know? And, and then there's the other factor, which is very important, and we all have to, you know, be aware of it too, is religiosity and moral framing. Catholicism and other religious traditions may shape clients' moral views on suffering, on fidelity, on family roles, and on forgiveness. So some may see emotional struggle as a spiritual failure in some situations.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (40:55):
Yeah, definitely all these kind of different aspects of what plays in. And that, that forgiveness piece, I think is also really interesting. I'd be interested in what that looks like culturally. And you and Michelle Gannon both did a podcast years ago, an interview on apologies. It's something that I still give to my clients. And it's really been a wonderful frame. And I'd love to see, if you wouldn't mind kind of speaking a little bit on that in general, and then how that plays out in, in cross-cultural.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (41:31):
I always have fun when I speak about forgiveness, when I start talking about apologies, because most people make these just terrible apologies, right? And we can spend a while laughing at the types of apologies that people say things like, "I'm sorry," is not a full sentence. You have to say more than just, "I'm sorry," or "I'm sorry you feel that way", or "I'm sorry you took it that way". Like, these are terrible apologies, you know? But let's get more serious, in EFT, forgiveness is not the goal, forgiveness is the byproduct of emotional healing. What needs to be forgiven is not just a behavior, but what we call an attachment injury -- that's a moment when one partner was deeply, deeply hurt or let down or left alone or abandoned in a particular moment of need and that's when the bond suddenly feels unsafe.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (42:43):
These kinds of injuries, they rupture the emotional bond, and so forgiveness restores it, that's the goal. Attachment injuries must be processed, you know, they're not resolved by an apology alone. The apology is almost like the final step. In a whole process of exploring the impact of the injury, exploring the emotional impact of the injury itself, and giving people the space to speak about the injury, as well as giving the injure-ing partner -- if it's an attachment injury --the space to contextualize, to contextualize and understand what was going on inside of them that led them to engage in a particular injurious behavior.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (43:42):
Yes, go ahead.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:43):
I was going to say, yeah, in some ways I think about it too is that the injured party oftentimes needs to feel like the other party understands.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (43:53):
Exactly where I was going-
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (43:56):
Deep level that like, because if they feel like they truly understand and they can empathize and get how hurtful, painful, then they're less likely to potentially do that again and feeling safer.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (44:08):
Absolutely. This, I learned from one of my teachers and mentors, Brent Bradley, who used to say that, "when the hurt person can see in the eyes of the person who hurt them, that their pain hurts them too, then they can start to forgive. Because only when the injured partner feels, felt when their pain is received with care and attunement can healing begin." But they need to see it reflected. So that's why words are insufficient, that's why words are insufficient. It really needs to involve being able to tolerate. It involves the injuring partner being able to tolerate hearing about the hurt that they caused, including being asked about all the details associated with that. And they are forced to move through the injury of their injured partner, and as they do that, they start to connect empathically to the pain that they caused, and they too can start to feel-- well, like, almost like their eyes are opened for what pain they have caused-- and they can start to drop into an empathic response. When they can do that, that's when forgiveness is even possible.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (45:47):
Definitely. Well, you're doing such incredible work. I'm just so appreciative and I learned so much from you, and you're just one of the warmest people that I know just kind of radiating that, and so EFT is just such a perfect kind of place for you. And I want to kind of mention too, for folks that are interested in learning more, you have co-authored the Deliberate Practice book on Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy where in deliberate practice-- we actually did interview with Tony about really having therapists practicing these different techniques with each other. Also I know you've got some, some trainings that you're doing. You were mentioning there's gonna be an externship in San Diego and you were saying that folks could go to your drsamjinich.com. I'll also link these on in your bio or ICEEFT, the International EFT Community that has a list. Then there's also the San Francisco Center for https://sfceft.com/ to check out the different trainings and the work you're doing and so on.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (47:13):
Yes, yes. Well, I'm so glad you mentioned it. You will post at some point the the links to my website and how to find out about future trainings, both in Spanish-speaking countries and in the United States. And we will definitely let you know how to access more about Emotionally Focused Therapy. If you're interested in Deliberate Practice, we will put a link to how you can get that book as well.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (47:47):
Definitely. Yeah. And for those that aren't therapists, you know, and, and therapists too. There's always the Hold Me Tight book by Sue Johnson for couples, which is something I refer to every couple that I work with that really, I think, you know, helps sometimes oftentimes give language to one's experience and really helping kind of that process of the attachment language and seeing things in a different way. So there's so many great resources out there. Thank you so much, Sam. I really appreciate your time. This is wonderful today.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (48:18):
I am so appreciative of you, Keith. You have been someone who has helped bring EFT to so many people, not only in the Bay Area, but really around the country and the world with your interest in it, with your focus on it, and the way that you have actually integrated it into your theoretical interests. And you have been a very important, important voice in the field of, of EFT and in helping to really extend its reach. So I actually appreciate you very much, and thank you for this interview.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (48:55):
Thanks. Great. Well, take care. Bye-Bye.
Sam Jinich, Ph.D. (48:59):
Bye. Thank you very much.
Keith Sutton, Psy.D. (49:00):
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