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Shafia Zaloom - Guest
Shafia Zaloom is a health educator, parent, consultant and author whose work centers on human development, community building, ethics, and social justice. Her approach involves creating opportunities for students and teachers to discuss the complexities of teen culture and decision-making with straight-forward, open and honest dialogue. Shafia has worked with thousands of children and their families in her role as teacher, coach, administrator, board member, and outdoor educator. She has contributed articles to The New York Times, The Washington Post, and numerous parenting blogs. Shafia’s book, Sex, Teens and Everything in Between has been reviewed as “the ultimate relationship guide for teens of all orientations and identities.” It is one that “every teen, and every parent and educator - and every other adult who interacts with teens - should read.” Shafia is currently the health teacher at the Urban School in San Francisco, and develops curricula and trainings for schools across the country. She was honored by the San Francisco Giants Foundation in 2018 for her work with Aim High, a program that expands opportunities for students and their teachers through tuition-free summer learning enrichment, and was recently granted CAHPERD’s Health Teacher of the Year Award for 2021. Her work has been featured by many media outlets including, The New York Times, USA Today, NPR, KQED, and PBS. |
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W. Keith Sutton, Psy.D. - Host
Dr. Sutton has always had an interest in learning from multiple theoretical perspectives, and keeping up to date on innovations and integrations. He is interested in the development of ideas, and using research to show effectiveness in treatment and refine treatments. In 2009 he started the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, providing a one-way mirror training in family therapy with James Keim, LCSW. Next, he added a trainer and one-way mirror training in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and an additional trainer and mirror in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. The participants enjoyed analyzing cases, keeping each other up to date on research, and discussing what they were learning. This focus on integrating and evolving their approaches to helping children, adolescents, families, couples, and individuals lead to the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy's training program for therapists, and its group practice of like-minded clinicians who were dedicated to learning, innovating, and advancing the field of psychotherapy. Our podcast, Therapy on the Cutting Edge, is an extension of this wish to learn, integrate, stay up to date, and share this passion for the advancement of the field with other practitioners. |
Dr. Keith Sutton: (00:22)
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advancements in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. Today I'll be speaking with Shafia Zaloom, who is a health educator, parent consultant and author whose work centers on human development, community building, ethics, and social justice. Her approach involves creating opportunities for students and teachers to discuss the complexities of team culture and decision making with straightforward, open, and honest dialogue. Shafia has worked with thousands of children and their families in a role as a teacher, coach, administrator, board member, and outdoor educator. She's contributed articles in New York Times, the Washington Post and numerous parenting blogs. Shafia's book, Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between, has been reviewed as the ultimate relationship guide for teens of all orientations and identities.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (01:19)
It is one that every teen and every parent and educator, and every other adult who interacts with teens should read. Shafia is currently the health teacher at Urban School of San Francisco and develops curricula and trainings for schools across the country. She was honored by the San Francisco Giants Foundation in 2018 for her work with Aim High, a program that expands opportunities for students and their teachers through tuition-free summer learning enrichment, and was recently granted CAHPERD's Health Teacher of the Year Award for 2021. Her work has been featured by many media outlets, including the New York Times, US Today, NPR, KQED, and PBS. Let's listen to the interview. So, hi, Shafia, welcome.
Shafia Zaloom: (01:57)
Hi, thanks for having me.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (01:59)
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on! So I know you because our daughters go to the same school and we were just kind of chatting, and I had to know about the work you were doing as a sex and health educator with adolescence, and you are working at a school locally here. You also wrote a book called Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between, which is right on point for what's going on right now and especially what I'm seeing in my practice. So I really wanted to learn more from you about your work, and first off, I always like to ask people about how they got to doing the work that they're doing today, or the evolution of their thinking.
Shafia Zaloom: (02:35)
Well, I've been teaching this for 30 years, so it started a long time ago. When I got out of school, I sort of fell into being a social worker. I started as a social worker. I got a lot of onsite professional development and training. I was working with dual and triple diagnosed youth who were in residential treatment as an alternative to incarceration. So a level 11 group home, all were gang related, gang affiliated, and in treatment for drug addiction. It was a pretty intense time and I was young and had a lot of energy and really had an incredibly positive experience. The young people I was working with -- I'm sure you would understand -- were all young people who had experienced harm as well as caused harm. And as I got to know the kids in my caseload and work with them more and really sort of gain experience in what I was doing, I realized there were a few things that stood out to me as reasons why they ended up where they were.
Shafia Zaloom: (03:43)
And a lot of it had to do with resources, of course. Having a lack of positive adults and guidance in their lives, dysfunctional relationships, as well as not having a very positive school context to which they could resource adults and find those things elsewhere. So, when I started to feel the burnout after several years of working so intensely with these kids, I thought, "Okay, I really wanna go into prevention versus this intervention all the time." Because I was also thinking of my own life and something that was sustainable for myself. And in my own life, relationships and education made the biggest difference in my own trajectory. So that's why I turned to health education. And health ed at the time was really sort of a new thing. People were pioneering health in the way that it's being taught now more so. It's more sort of a progressive beginning.
Shafia Zaloom: (04:47)
I was hired at Marin Academy by Bodie Brizendine, who was also a new head of school, and said, "I want a psychodynamic, psycho-educational classroom in which teens can wrestle with the real issues that they're dealing with on a daily basis. Not like the Mean Girls movie with the coach that was like, "If you have sex, you'll get chlamydia and die." Right? So we built this program together, and it was really exciting, and that sort of launched my career in education.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (05:18)
Oh, wonderful. Great. So it sounds like you got a lot more depth in the dynamic that you were teaching in and educating and helping them process it.
Shafia Zaloom: (05:26)
A hundred percent. Yeah, for sure. And she really empowered me to do my job. You know, I do national consulting and I'll go into a lot of schools that say they want this, but they're not willing to put the resources, and the time, and, you know, the scheduling and all that sort of stuff that needs to happen behind it, and Bodie really did. And it was great. It was super exciting in so many ways, for sure.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (05:52)
I'd love to hear your thoughts on health education and particularly, you know, adolescents. I do a lot of work with adolescents and I do a lot of family work. Oftentimes, parents -- these were their little kids a few years ago. They were very non-sexual and now they're becoming more sexual, maybe, dating or hooking up. Or they might be making TikTok videos and looking cute, dancing around, things like that. And helping adolescents navigate through puberty to help them have a good, healthy relationship -- a sex positive relationship -- while at the same time also addressing parents' concerns and helping them be a resource and be someone that kids can turn to without reacting and trying to quell, or shame, or so on. I mean, it's such an important time. Tell me a little bit about your thoughts or how you approach this in working with the kids.
Shafia Zaloom: (06:51)
I think part of my response is, I'm going to model the language and the way by which I talk to young people as well as their parents about this, because that might be helpful. I just wanna recognize, I know the audience here is therapists, you know, mostly therapists. Being familiar with therapy myself and with therapeutic models, I feel like this sexuality conversation in many ways is a huge opportunity to teach as much as it is to engage in whatever type of therapy you are doing with the young person you're working with, because they aren't getting this education in many places in their lives. And so it serves them through their sessions to acquire medically accurate sex-positive information.
Shafia Zaloom: (07:40)
When it comes to the approach, I always talk about normalizing things, right? That we are all sexual beings from birth to death -- even folks who might identify as asexual or ace. As kids start to express their sexuality in different ways, it can be really challenging for parents, because we are also pioneers when it comes to sex positivity. Many of us who have school-aged children -- and mine are a little older now, right? I have a daughter in college, a son who's an upperclassman in high school, and then a middle school kid -- no matter what their age, we didn't get these talks. We didn't have a lot of this. It's a generational thing that's been passed down. The sociopolitical historical context of this is pretty shame-based and stigmatized. It's hard to in this current culture as well, where adults also are inundated or buy into this sort of effortless perfection.
Shafia Zaloom: (08:46)
"I have to be the perfect parent. I can't mess up. I can't say that I'm wrong." You know, "Vulnerability is weakness. It's not strength." You know, all these sort of cultural messages that get in the way of our capacity to do this effectively with our kids. I think the first piece is just being really compassionate and generous and gracious with ourselves. I think that's so important. And to take the time to think about our own sex education, what our values are, where they came from, what we wanna pass on to our children and what we wanna change and make different, and to get that clarity ourselves. And to talk that through with our friends or our partner or whomever, so that we actually get some practice. And that's gonna be to our kids' benefit.
Shafia Zaloom: (09:34)
You mentioned becoming the ask-able parent, right? I think that really starts when kids are young. Now it's never too late -- If you have the opportunity to start with your small person in your home, I say, go for it. People suddenly get nervous because they feel it's about sex and that's inappropriate. It's actually not, if you do it in an age appropriate way. If you have questions about that across the developmental stages and how we talk about concepts of consent, what does that look like in the kindergarten classroom? Things like that, or before bedtime or during bath time with a young child, we can talk about it. But I would say the mantra in the approach is to be straightforward and honest and to not be afraid of being positive.
Shafia Zaloom: (10:29)
I think there's a lot of misinformation out there that somehow if we talk about this and kids know, then they'll do. There's no empirical evidence to support that whatsoever. In fact, the inverse is true. If we empower young people with the correct words, with a normalized vocabulary and context in which they can have conversations about their body and being in charge of the body and how they feel in their body when they are in relationships with other people, with family members, with friends, you're really setting the stage for building upon that. I always tell parents -- and I think this is helpful, and therapists know -- that it's really about scaffolding. Across time you're collecting moments, it's the value of small victories. And then you're hanging things on that scaffolding as you go along.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (11:32)
Building upon, you know, kind of adding to.
Shafia Zaloom: (11:35)
And think layers, like of an onion. And I think also remembering that all people need an environment free of judgment and shame to share with open honesty. What we want as parents -- and this is also what therapists are so good at -- is to become experts in really awesome questions that inspire reflection, thinking. I think parents think sex education is always about genitals and the mechanics of sex and all that sort of stuff, and it's not. The majority of healthy sexuality and relationship education is really about values, right -- your family values. Parents are the primary sexuality educator in a child's life. They need to hear that, like kids and parents need to hear that. And that they're not the only ones.
Shafia Zaloom: (12:36)
For therapists, I always recommend, in the space that you're creating that's a safe space, making sure that there are clues that kids can pick up on that indicate you are safe in regards to a sexual context. So do you have a rainbow flag somewhere, right? You have love is love stickers on your laptop. You know, little details like that are what kids look for to tell them, "Oh, this person may be accepting and safe." I think sometimes we miss that. As people who provide guidance to young people, I think those visual cues are very important and ones that they're gonna be looking at. And how diverse is your own vocabulary when it comes to what the young people are seeing in their feed? How they're talking about social justice, how they're talking about sexuality, what the issues are -- how up to date are you with all of that information?
Dr. Keith Sutton: (13:45)
Definitely. You know, you said something really important. Particularly around the parents sometimes focusing on the genital information, one of the things that I teach with therapists and training around adolescence is helping go beyond the sex talk and about relationships and how we relate to each other -- how you tell somebody you like them, how you tell somebody you don't like them -- all these aspects and really kind of expanding it from there. Because it's not just about the sex, it's about in relationship. And I think that that's such an important piece that sometimes people forget.
Shafia Zaloom: (14:21)
Yeah, I think this default to what is scientific or clinical or medical, parents, and as adults, we all want to sort of check those boxes, right? But what kids really need, and I find this in my work with them, is, there's a lot of assumption that people make around kids understanding what values actually mean and what they look, sound and feel like in practice and in relationship. Especially if you have a young person who comes into your practice in middle school and maybe you're using the word respect a lot, but haven't taken the time to say, "So what's your definition of respect?" I'll have a room of 100 eighteen year olds and they're talking about respect, I'll say, "Okay. So how many of you have been taught to respect yourselves and others like your whole life?" Every single hand goes up, right? Every single hand.
Shafia Zaloom: (15:13)
I say, "How many of you are confident in giving me a definition of what that means?" Every hand goes down. And there's a lot of misconception that somehow respect is treating people how you would wanna be treated, but it's actually not, it's treating people how they wanna be treated. And those nuances can make a difference for kids. And kids will say, you know, "Shafia, I know what the definition of consent is, but what does that actually mean for me on Saturday night?" Like... what does that... I don't even know. But you know, my parents are constantly saying, or people in my life are always saying, "Respect women, respect women." It's like, well, what does that mean? Because if he's reading from that cultural script, it's not what we're at, what we're thinking, right? So I find exploring with kids, what that really looks, sounds, and feels like in their relationships in concrete ways, because cognitively that's where they are, is what's going to be most of effective.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (16:13)
Well, I think the issue of respect is so important because, I don't know if I've got the correct definition, but the way I think about it too, is that respecting the other as an individual with different needs, wants, and opinions is recognizing that they can exist and have self worth in and of themselves. But I think like you're saying, it's not just treating them as you'd like to be treated, but finding out how they'd like to be treated, and that they have a right to those opinions and those things. Like you're saying, I think there comes consent of finding where you make that bridge between what your needs and wants are and what their needs and wants are, and if that connects.
Shafia Zaloom: (16:56)
Yeah. And I talk a lot about being attuned to your partner and what that means. And the values -- I used respect as an example, but I actually tend to sometimes talk to kids about that. They bring that word up a lot and then I try to expand their vocabulary, because I find it's really limited in accurately expressing an emotional embodied experience for all people, adults included. We have sort of a default to the trifecta of mad sad and great, or mad, sad, glad, you know, whatever. And so how to give them a more nuanced vocabulary, but also to talk about, very specifically, things like empathy, dignity. I'm really big on resurrecting dignity as a word and a concept. And I do a whole class on how to ask someone out on a date and we talk about how success is not getting someone to say yes, but both people getting to walk away with dignity.
Shafia Zaloom: (17:59)
And the focus is really on that. It's a pretty basic concept of feeling like someone's treated you like you have value. I feel like that allows for a lot of individuality and differentiation too -- amongst students or clients or whoever it is you're speaking to -- is this concept of dignity, and what that is and means, and what gets in the way and what the cultural narrative is dictating that sort of shapes and molds that in a way that doesn't necessarily serve kids. You know, in that big developmental task that they have during adolescence and what younger kids are aspiring to, which is to figure out how to have a healthy, intimate, sustained relationship.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (18:48)
Definitely. And I think that's something that you were mentioning earlier about the aspects of social justice. I mean, you know, gender, sexuality, sexual violence, consent. All these pieces are brought into social justice and sexual orientation, gender orientation. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more about those pieces, because I think that that's also something that is oftentimes confusing for therapists and parents, especially when kids are more fluid in their gender or exploring their gender, their sexuality. I don't know about your experience at all, but I've almost been noticing just my own kids in middle school and with some of the other kids that it's almost like heterosexuality is almost not being the norm anymore. Almost kind of starting out saying, I don't know what I'm gonna be, you know? Rather than like, I'm not gay. More like just again, being more open, and kind of a process of discovery. I don't know if that's just a couple little samples here in Marin county or whatever.
Shafia Zaloom: (19:58)
You know, I think that's true. I think that we live in the bay area, which is sort of Mecca when it comes to those sort of things. In a lot of my work now that's not to say that it isn't in on the internet and in the social media space. And therefore there are kids in different places, in different contexts that maybe aren't so, you know, anti-cis-heteronormative, and more inclusive and friendly. Or if they live in a queer-antagonistic sort of context, they're able to find affirmation through the internet virtually. But that's also really hard because there's this world that isn't your reality, in the virtual space. And then you're at home and in relationship with people who are in school, with people who may not be as accepting. I do find that I find that here all the time, I think it's really refreshing. It's something that I teach, that our relationship with sexuality and understanding it is an ongoing relationship.
Shafia Zaloom: (20:58)
And as we journey through life, it will be shaped and formed by the people we meet, the education we get, you know, all those sort of things, the relationships we're in. I think it's really beautiful how kids are really open. I think it's hard for some parents. Sometimes, and they're not quite sure what to do with that. And I see a full spectrum of parents who wanna support, but don't know how to talk about it, and then just default to quiet, which also communicates a message that they don't intend, but it is there. And then there are other parents who are so excited to be the supportive parent, that they almost ascribe the identity to their child based on an inkling that they're exploring and questioning. I think it's so important for all of us to just let that reveal itself, like create this space and give the kids the reflection, like tools and questions to ask themselves, to allow that to be revealed in a way that feels like their truth.
Shafia Zaloom: (21:57)
And I always tell parents, depending on the developmental stage, just because a kid says "I'm bi" or "I'm gay" or "I'm fluid" or whatever it is, depending on their age, that's very developmentally appropriate to say in a way that feels like it's permanent. But we know that it may not be because developmentally there's so much left to take place and happen. And so I think, you know, for parents, it's figuring out their own feelings, right? Making sure they have appropriate boundaries and being accepting and just open and creating those spaces so it can be revealed and unfold at the direction, in some ways, of the kid. Like allow the kid to be an expert in their own experience. I think when we give kids that option, it's super helpful.
Shafia Zaloom: (22:57)
The young people I talk to and work with in different states, in different contexts, especially in politically more conservative cultural frameworks, it's still hard. There's a lot of transphobia. There's a lot of homophobia. There's a lot of misogyny. You know, the hyper masculinity that's out there. So it can be tough. And a lot of kids also are just reading from cultural scripts without a lot of intervention or questioning, but not criticizing. Not questioning in a way that's judgmental and asking why, but rather to just say, you know, so what's coming up for you and what can you tell me about this and help me understand that. Just be super curious.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (23:56)
Definitely. You know I think it's also so hard for parents. One of the things that I do, I integrate some attachment-based family therapy for adolescents and really kind of help the kids to talk and help the parents really, to listen, to activate that attachment instinct. And, you know, conversations around sexuality can oftentimes be so hard for the parents. I remember one family I was working with the mother with listening, and the daughter, she was saying, "Oh, I'm dating this guy." And she said, "Oh, what do you like about him?" She said, "He's hot." And she said, "Oh, that's nice, anything more about him?" "Oh, he's, he's a jerk. He treats me really bad, but he's really hot." And she just had to kind of sit there with that and say, oh, tell me more about that.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (24:39)
And really just through the conversation, just by really listening, it created some space and her daughter was kind of talking about her ambivalence about whether she wanted to be or not. But oftentimes for many parents, the anxiety goes up and we want to protect and we get scared and we're like, ugh. You know. And of course we want to check that things are safe, but you know, oftentimes it's hard to create that space. And also as therapists, you know, sometimes our inner parent, mama bear, Papa bear, or whatever it might be kind of kicks in. And so again, finding ways to create that space, to help them process and support.
Shafia Zaloom: (25:12)
Yeah. And I find it's really, it can be really challenging too, making that call of how much do we allow a kid to have some independence and agency and make mistakes. We know negative consequences are down the road, right? To have those experiences and to learn themselves and/or to ask them questions, get them to reflect, and interject our own thoughts and opinions about where they may be headed. And if that's in their best interest, I mean, it's a tough call. And I think post, you know, still navigating this pandemic, post sort of sheltering in place and all those sort of things, and still seeing the unravel of that and the trauma, it's like the death by a thousand cuts. I have a daughter who was the class of Spring 2020, who was a graduating senior and, and just the health issues, the arrested development that we're now seeing kids play catch up with, the lack of social interaction and all the learning that comes with that, you know, the morality clinic that recesses not happening for so long.
Shafia Zaloom: (26:22)
I'm just getting so many inquiries in my consulting practice, because I go to different states across the country to teach and talk to people. So many people are scrambling. So many folks in schools say, kids need... Like we need to teach them how it's okay to touch as they come into community in more physical ways again. What's okay, what's not, how do they flirt? And I think having been so, intensely in the digital space for so long because of COVID, you know, I used to tell kids, you have to think of the digital space as an extension of your personal space when it comes to self-regulation making decisions about what to post, how to treat people, because that really matters. You know, all those sort of things, and not hiding behind sort of this perceived anonymity or something's gonna disappear and not be there, so there's no consequence. I find that shifted, because kids' personal space was the digital space for so long.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (27:29)
Yeah. That was the extension of themselves.
Shafia Zaloom: (27:31)
Yes. And now they're in physical, real time space with each other and they're realizing they're using these skills they had in the digital space that they honed, but they don't work in the real time, in the physical space. And so, it's a lot. It's a lot. And for so many kids too, I find that social shifting that tended to happen in adolescents during the ninth and 10th grade year, finding your people in your friends and then settling into that for 11th and 12th is still happening. Kids being iced out of friend groups, kids feeling like they had this really deep relationship with someone and then now it's like, meh. And sort of how they're trying to figure those things out a lot. They had no agency, a lot of kids, because who they were social with was determined by how COVID conscious your parents were.
Shafia Zaloom: (28:31)
So it's just interesting to see how the mess is sorting itself out. Definitely. And it's so great. They can all be in school, and depending on where you live, and ours are still wearing masks, which I think we're hitting a threshold on, but yeah, there's a lot to sort through and talk to them about.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (28:55)
Yeah, definitely sorting all those pieces. That was interesting. I was talking to a second grade teacher the other day about the effects of the pandemic. And she was saying, one thing that she's noticed is that at least those kids seem to have more compassion and are more patient and flexible than other years that she's experienced. And, you know, it's kind of almost like a byproduct of this. This generation has had to like switch and move and kind of, you know, deal with all these big, big changes. But I think, like you're saying, yeah. I mean, I imagine too, that one effect that must have on sexuality and sexual development, you know, especially if these kids really are only online, right -- and there's a lot online -- particularly not having maybe some of those conversations or being with or flirting or things like that.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (29:42)
And, and kind of, getting some distorted ideas around sexuality and all those aspects. I wonder too, like, you know, I just finished reading Come as You Are, Nagoski's book, which is amazing, love it. Like, it's so good. I'm actually in the process of going towards the ASEC certification. But yeah, just so many myths or so many misunderstandings that happen for so many people that so many adults have because they didn't get this information when they were younger. You know, pleasure at different stages, not just orgasm, or you know, looking at how context affects, or the concordance between genitalia and our brain and all these kind of things that are so oftentimes not connected or not known or this education. Tell me a little bit about that. I mean, especially, I think it mostly affects, you know, female born women or different gender-identified because oftentimes it -- also, of course, boys and men -- but oftentimes there's a lot of miscommunication or myths, or really just kind of mistruths that are, that are oftentimes told to create this, this confusing context.
Shafia Zaloom: (31:06)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, a lot of kids land in my class and they have to unlearn before they can relearn a lot. Emily is one of my personal rock stars, I think, just so fabulous. And I use so much of her work in my own teaching. And you know, one thing I like, she has this metaphor for sexuality, which is the garden, right? Like she talks about the garden and, you know, I always think it's important to empower young people when it's age appropriate and context dependent, you know, context appropriate about how we all have a sexual accelerator. We all have a sexual break and what that means and how that factors into things, but also the garden. And I love the garden because it gives kids something concrete to actually hold onto, to talk about.
Shafia Zaloom: (31:52)
A lot of times it can feel too intimate, too personal, but if you have something like, oh, I've created this collage, which is my garden, and this represents this, and this represents that. And Emily talks about how, you know, we can go -- as you become an adolescent or begin to become older and take more responsibility for your sexuality -- that you can go row by row and actually look and see what's been planted there and what you wanna pull out and what you wanna put in. I always talk to kids too, about what's the criteria for someone coming into your garden? What can they take? What can they leave? You know, all those sort of things actually adapted that, with her permission of course, for my book, that passage. And then the concordance thing, I think for all genders is so important, especially if you have young people who are watching porn, which is so pervasive these days.
Shafia Zaloom: (32:40)
Because I'll get kids who come in who are confused because I mean, porn's a whole conversation and the sexual science of it and the delivery mechanism and the reward response. But I'll get some kids who have built up a tolerance when it comes to arousal to the porn watching. So what they have to watch to achieve arousal is in many ways, super intensely misogynist, intensely aggressive, and violent, and they'll come in and they'll be scared. And they'll say, you know, is this what I like? Is this what I want? And so in my class, I always talk about arousal, non concordance, and a great example of illustrating that is the random erection in math class, right. Something sexually relevant. You know, I talk about the sexual relevant part of your brain and the desire and wanting part of your brain, and most times they're aligned and sometimes they're not. And you know, maybe something sexually relevant happens in math class, a hormone surge or your pants brushing your genitals in some way, and your brain goes, "Ooh, sexually relevant!" But your other part of your brain's like, "Uh, not in the middle of math class."
Dr. Keith Sutton: (33:49)
Yeah. I'm in math class. Let's not turn on.
Shafia Zaloom: (33:51)
And it's huge also in a gendered way when it comes to sexual violence, because we used to promote this idea that boys could not be assaulted if they had an erection during the time of sexual activity. And if there's some sort of sexual stimulation that's sexually relevant happening, that does not mean that a boy necessarily wants this happening to happen. So there's a lot of important, very relevant ways by which we need to talk about concordance with kids. And why it's more important to pay attention to people's words than their genitals.
Shafia Zaloom: (34:27)
So, you know, there's that piece. And then the other part of pleasure, you know, I always talk about the sexual accelerator. The sexual break is really about allowing alleviating the break so the accelerator can go on its own than just like ramming on the accelerator. And that the end all be all, which is the cultural narrative, is not necessarily orgasm for all people. And that many different types of body people, you know, will enjoy a lot of other ways by which we explore the aspects of our sexuality that have yet to be discovered, and what a joy that can be. And so I think talking about pleasure, balancing responsibility and pleasure is so important for young people, empowering them with the correct information.
Shafia Zaloom: (35:23)
And that requires for busy parents -- because I know how that is, I know we both do, right -- to have to educate themselves on a lot that they didn't get. And part of when I, you know, what motivated me to write my book was I would be traveling and go to all these different schools in different states. And the questions were always the same. Not only for kids, but also parents. And then parents would come up to me after the talk and say, thank you so much. I learned so much, and this is what's going on with my kid. Do you have any suggestions? And we discuss, and they say, wait a minute and then turn record on their phone and hold it at up to my face.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (35:57)
Oh geez.
Shafia Zaloom: (35:59)
Because they needed language and they needed strategies. And I was like, okay, how can we, how can we create like, a handbook, right? For folks when it comes to this stuff with all the essential elements that in my own experience, in teaching thousands of kids about this stuff and listening to them, like hearing all their stories, which is the crux of the book, like what parents need to know, what are the questions they can ask? Where are the resources to go for more information? Like, because we're busy. A lot going on.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (36:33)
Yeah, and I love to, I mean, you know, I got your book. And then when I first started looking at the table of contents, you know, I mean it starts out with consent, right? Yes means yes, what we mean when we talk about consent, and then chapter two, about the legal rights and sexual harassment and assault and, you know, chapter three, you're good, how to teach consent and keeping it sexy. All these aspects are so important. And then getting into expertise, gender pressure, porn, love, pleasure, sex, you know, all these kind of aspects and really helping parents to be able to have these conversations. And again, I think it's extremely helpful for therapists to be able to be thinking about this and how to have those conversations, because it's really focused on, you know, these are the necessary conversations that parents need to have with their kids.
Shafia Zaloom: (37:21)
Yeah. And I find, I really tried, for anyone who works with children that was sort of my audience as well as kids because the second half of every chapter is just the frequently asked questions I get from kids wherever I am teaching and stuff. And I answer in very brief, concise ways as if they had raised their hand in my class. And I really intended, and the audience for that is the kids, but also for adults, one who don't know that information and two to model the language that over the years I've found to be age appropriate and appropriate for an adult-child relationship. And that is accessible to kids, and just the right amount of information where they're not tuning out. Communicated the important points that need to be shared. I find that that's really the challenge for all of us who work with young people is that piece. And you know, for therapists in particular, I think just having some of that language, that's a little more current. I think for young people also, something that I wanted to just sort of make a plug for -- and I don't know that therapists are really doing this much because the focus is so much on sort of the internal life of the young person -- is how important it is to understand and know what your patient is binge watching.
Shafia Zaloom: (38:53)
What is they watching on TV? Because I think we really underestimate, the power and influence that that has and the opportunity it affords to talk about these issues and explore these issues by talking about characters as if they're people and the values associated with the relationships they have.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (39:17)
Definitely. Well, I think you're so right. Yeah. I was thinking of that myself because at least even with my own kids, some of the conversations have been helpful with watching videos. Like there's the Oprah one where there's a therapist talking with a mother and a child, and talking about sex, and watching that with, you know, my kids and then talking about that kind of helps almost stimulate that conversation. Or, it was a good one on, My Kid Would Never Do That on Dateline 2020 where, you know, somebody's like, "Hey, come and get in the ice cream truck with me!" and so on. And like, you know, they have hidden cameras seeing if the kids do it or not. And again, watching that with my own kids and then having these conversations around safety and, and all those aspects. But like you're saying, yeah, finding out about the characters that they're watching or the stories or so on, and learning about those as therapists, because yeah, that can be kind of the medium for talking about these issues.
Shafia Zaloom: (40:14)
A hundred percent. And it really helps kids, I feel like, if you're talking about consent education. So I bring media into my class all the time, because that is the primary way by which I feel like young people are really learning about sort of gender dynamics and relationship and our personal dynamics and things like that. We never want to create a situation in which kids, like they have to have experiential context to participate in a meaningful way in our dialogue and it wouldn't be appropriate or responsible to ask kids, nor would I want them to share about their own personal experiences if they have them in a public way in a classroom. And we do have a level of confidentiality, but not one that's, you know, a set up in which kids are doing whatever, but more about sort of expecting kids not to exploit each other and trash talk each other, et cetera.
Shafia Zaloom: (41:04)
And you know, they're constantly feeding me these clips that I use in class. And so that's our shared experience, which is far more appropriate and easier to have substantive dialogue about. And just say like, okay so did you see, did they ask for consent? Let's talk about context. Context is everything in relationships. Did they get to walk away with their dignity? What would've made the difference? Is there a gender dynamic going on? If you substitute a gender with some other social identity, would something shift and change? Is there a double standard? You know, all those things that I think are great tools for young people to have, and really provide insight into how kids are thinking about what they're seeing, what they're watching, what their peers are also watching with them and that they then talk about.
Shafia Zaloom: (41:57)
And the experience of the binge, right. Like when we were younger, you had to wait a whole week where you could watch the next episode, but if you're watching a show and there's some content that's very deeply concerning that's out there and you're watching a show and your brain is developing, it's a multi-sensory experience. And the delivery mechanism typically through a computer or a phone or something like that is, you know, there's a dopamine reward response. Let's talk about that. What does that mean? Bringing that into their consciousness I think is huge. And I think it's a nice way to balance out sometimes and maybe provide a little levity or relief if things are getting really heavy and deep. Not to derail, if you're like on a trajectory with your patient and getting to something that's really gonna be a revelation and epiphany -- you know, like in those aha moments. But rather sometimes I feel like kids need that. To be able to access those other parts of themselves., because it's become such a huge part of their lives.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (43:13)
Definitely, yeah. And I'm wondering about, you know, we were talking a little bit before we got on about, you know, a lot of the issues around consent and around abuse and you made a good point about the non concordance with abuse and boys and erections. One in four girls, one in six boys, end up experiencing abuse, and of course, one of the important reasons to be talking to kids about it early, is because a lot of this oftentimes happens early, but also, of course, I work with lots of kids, young adults, adults who experience trauma through violence in their relationships, in with other kids their own age. I also have some that have ended up feeling accused and having to leave a school, because there was an issue that came up and such. And on the other side, someone really being hurt by another person and then again, the school, not really holding that confidentiality and again, also feeling like needing to leave after being a victim of violence.
Shafia Zaloom: (44:38)
Yeah. You know, my curricula has evolved in this way, in different ways around this, based on what I'm hearing from young people and what I'm seeing in terms of generational shifts around this sort of conversation and what's happening, and what's happening in the greater cultural dialogue as well as then how they're taking what they're seeing and applying it to their own lives, especially in the digital space. Because there's things like cancel culture and all this stuff, which is really intense and has some very long lasting consequences for all children, right? Like whether you are the person who's experienced sexual harm or you're the person who's causing the sexual harm, there's a lot to it. I think we can be very confusing. It can be very confusing for young people and it's in their best interest for the adults to actually draw like a distinct difference between a distinction between consent as being in the essential component of being attuned to your partner.
Shafia Zaloom: (45:39)
So you can experience pleasure in a really responsible way and enriching, loving, caring, reciprocal relationship grounded in authentic connection, even if it's just for physical gratification, right? And then there's consent. And I like to use a lot of analogies and metaphors with the kids I work with because they're such concrete thinkers and for a lot of them, these are really abstract concepts, right. And things that they're just trying to figure out, is that there's consent within a context of sexual violence. And you know, what's the correct appropriate language, what does it actually mean? What are our legal responsibilities and what are our ethical responsibilities? Because I feel like at least when I'm teaching, I want, you know, consent is fundamental, it's essential, it's so important. It's what makes sexual activity legal and protects the fundamentals of human dignity.
Shafia Zaloom: (46:36)
And we wanna teach our kids to go beyond consent. Consent in many ways we have to evolve out of this, focus on the semantics around consent to encourage kids. You know, they gotta understand that's the floor, not the ceiling. Like they need to aspire beyond consent to ethical and good sex. And not good sex in the way that the popular media puts it out. And I have an activity, I take them through to understand what good sex actually is. And they all actually don't necessarily need to have that experience to understand because it's an expression, it's communication. It's like the qualities of a really good conversation. And so, I tell them I'm like, we gotta aspire beyond just not a felony. Like this is so important.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (47:22)
I think it was a, I saw a TikTok or something and it was a comedian or something saying like, "I don't want consent, I want enthusiasm!" You know, consent is just like, okay, yeah, you can do this. Like, that's not what we're going for. Like, "Yes, I would love to do that with you!" is kind of what we wanna be going for -- that somebody is excited and wants to do these things rather than like, okay, I'll do this.
Shafia Zaloom: (47:44)
Yeah. And you can have a consensual sexual experience that is disappointing, embarrassing, that's boring, that's regrettable, like all those things too. And so I think it's really confusing for kids, with some of the ways we approach this conversation. You know, I think it can feel a bit daunting as well as it's exciting, right. Because we want, I believe we all want that for our children. Right? Like we want them to have caring, loving relationships. And we all know there's decades of research that tells us it's not your GPA or where you go to school, that's going to determine the quality of your life. It's the quality of your relationships. Like this is such an important piece. And so when it comes to consent, you know, context is everything, right? So context, I'll talk about for kids, a way to help them figure this out would be, okay, let's say you and your friends are walking down whatever street, you know, in Marin.
Shafia Zaloom: (48:45)
Maybe it's Fourth Avenue if you're San Rafael right. San Francisco, Eighth Street, whatever. And you, you've had a long academic day and you're trying to blow off steam. So you're, horsing around. So you're kind of, you know, elbowing each other, maybe poking at each other a little bit. There's some banter going back and forth. Everyone's on board with the banter. There's laughter there's joy. It feels like a stress relief. It's bonding because you have the shared experience. And it's joyful. Right. So that's the horseplay that's happening. Let's say some rando on the street sees what's happening amongst you and your friends. And they say, you know what, I wanna do that too, because that looks awesome. And they come right up to you and they start doing the same exact thing that you're doing with your friends. And I'll say, so what's the emotional embodied experience of that? Surprise, get away, violation, fear, all those things. And I'll say, you know, it's the same thing. He was doing the same. That person was doing the same thing they saw you doing with each other. But it's a different context. Context is everything when it comes to your emotional embodied experiences. So I think in having these conversations around sexual violence, that's also why you can revoke consent at any time because context is variable.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (50:02)
Yeah. And I like that you referenced that there's a little cartoon kind of showing like, somebody, you know, kind of waking somebody up with like a stereo at night and saying like, "Yeah, I said, I like that song, but I don't wanna hear it when I'm sleeping!" Or somebody saying like, "You know, hey, you took my car and like, well you lent it to me last week so I can have it anytime I want," you know, and kind of making these analogies that I think are really helpful in helping them kind of wrap their head around this idea of consent and, and being able to revoke consent.
Shafia Zaloom: (50:34)
Right. And, I think that's, you know, an important piece. A lot of people think we have to go immediately. We go immediately to the sexual violence, like assault and harassment and all that sort of stuff. We'll get there. You have to lay the groundwork first. I just think that's so important. And, it's scaffolding again. Right. We know this is how kids learn. That's why they take arithmetic before they take algebra. You know, it's logical when we think of it that way, but we don't tend to approach it that way. And the consent conversation is no different, and how we treat each other really matters. And you know, when it comes to sexual communication, I always say to kids, think of a bear. So, you know, I'll have every kid in the class think of a bear, like the animal, a bear. And we all know what a bear is. They know what I'm asking for of them. And when we start talking about our bears, they all come up with different bears. Of course, Yogi bear, Bernstein bears, a polar bear, black bear.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (51:33)
A picture of a bear in their mind is different.
Shafia Zaloom: (51:35)
Yes, exactly. And I'll say, okay, so what is it that your bear is doing? What does it look like? And the bears are all different and up to all kinds of different things. And I'll say, so what determined the bear that came up in your imagination? "Well, I just, I at a national park this summer," or "I saw a documentary in science class" or "I was sitting in my room and my childhood stuffed bear was sitting right in front of me" or "I just had gummy bears" a, you know, snack context, right. Our experiences. So sexual communication, which includes consent, is think of a bear. We cannot assume when we are engaging in that communication, that what our bear looks sounds and feels like is the same as someone else. And so you have to take the time to ask. And another analogy you might have seen this in the book would be french fries, right?
Shafia Zaloom: (52:22)
So you talk to kids about French fries. It's pretty universal. Anybody, adults. You know, play at up, what kind of fries do you like, what are your sides, et cetera. You have this big plate of fries. You go and sit down at a table of family and or friends, and what happens? Hands come darting in to pick off your fries. And I'll say, okay, without assuming context, how many of you are a hundred percent okay with that? Very rarely do you ever get anyone who raises their hand. And then that gives you something to deconstruct, right? Like, okay. So what is it that's not okay about it? Well, they didn't ask, what does asking express? They recognize that it's yours. They belong to me. What gets in the way of saying something? I don't wanna draw attention to myself, I'm afraid I'm gonna be judged. It's just french fries. You know, they're my parent and I have to let them have my fries, you know, all these sort of things, right. I mean, you get where I'm going. Not to minimize.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (53:20)
No, I think it's, I think they're great ways of having these conversations, you know, that kind of takes it away from something that might be so fraught with emotion because of the taboo or because of the anxiety around it or so on. Because I think that that's that. And like you're saying that that's the foundational piece, is kind of this consent and kind of knowledge of our needs and our effect on others, and you know, kind of building upon that. And I think that's something that, you know, therapists can really take away because that's something that therapists can have conversations around with clients also, in relationship to the kids that they're working with and helping parents to have these conversations too.
Shafia Zaloom: (54:02)
Yeah. And I feel like for therapists in particular, who are such experts in asking these important, good questions, right? Like is actually taking some time to pause and to say, well, did you feel like, how did you know you had consent? Is that groundwork prior to say, so help me understand what you think consent is, right? Like what are the ways you can give it? What are the ways you can't? And just taking them through that exercise so that you're getting to know what their bear is, which is what you do on a greater scale. But when it comes to sexuality, they don't have these conversations in the same ways that they do of other areas in their life. And so it's really up to all of us who have that understanding to guide to that deeper understanding that, that broader vocabulary, so that they are being educated at the same time that they're, you know, engaged in a therapeutic relationship. And then, being really concrete. So a lot of times I find this with kids, I'll say, so what's, you know, sexual harassment is about conduct. Assault is about contact. And we talk about what's included, but I'll say, okay, you know, and then there's coercion. Which I find is what you really have to focus on with kids. That's called peer pressure, right?
Shafia Zaloom: (55:21)
And then leveraging social power dynamics. And a lot of kids, I'll say what's a social power dynamic. They'll say employer, an employee. It's an adult version. And I'll say, okay, not that kids don't work, but you know, it depends. And I'll say, so what does that look like in high school? Like what's a social power dynamic in high school. Well, a popular kid in a non-popular team, or varsity team captain and a freshman recruit or senior and yeah.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (55:51)
Because power effects, consent in all these aspects. So, so significantly.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (55:57)
Yeah, boy, I could talk with you all the day about this. It's such a huge topic and I really appreciate you taking the time today. You know, I think this is really helpful and will definitely encourage folks to get your book and read more about it and have more conversations. Because again, you're talking about so many different ways to expand this conversation beyond like, you know, here's the information about sex or genitals or so on because it is so big. So I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
Shafia Zaloom: (56:29)
Thank you for your interest. I enjoyed it.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (56:31)
Great. Thanks a lot. Take care.
Shafia Zaloom: (56:34)
You too.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (56:35)
Bye.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (56:36)
Thank you for joining us. If you're wanting to use this podcast to earn continuing education credits, please go to our website at therapyonthecuttingedge.com. Our podcast is brought to you by the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy, providing in-person and remote therapy in the San Francisco Bay Area. IAP provides screening for licensed clinicians through our in-person and online programs, as well as our treatment for children, adolescents, families, couples, and individual adults. For more information, go to sfiap.com or call (415) 617-5932. Also, we really appreciate feedback, and if you have something you're interested in, something that's on the cutting edge of the field of therapy, and think clinicians should know about it, send us an email or call us. We're always looking for the advancements in the field of psychotherapy to help in creating lasting changes for our clients.
Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge, a podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advancements in the field of psychotherapy. I'm your host, Dr. Keith Sutton, a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay Area and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement of Psychotherapy. Today I'll be speaking with Shafia Zaloom, who is a health educator, parent consultant and author whose work centers on human development, community building, ethics, and social justice. Her approach involves creating opportunities for students and teachers to discuss the complexities of team culture and decision making with straightforward, open, and honest dialogue. Shafia has worked with thousands of children and their families in a role as a teacher, coach, administrator, board member, and outdoor educator. She's contributed articles in New York Times, the Washington Post and numerous parenting blogs. Shafia's book, Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between, has been reviewed as the ultimate relationship guide for teens of all orientations and identities.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (01:19)
It is one that every teen and every parent and educator, and every other adult who interacts with teens should read. Shafia is currently the health teacher at Urban School of San Francisco and develops curricula and trainings for schools across the country. She was honored by the San Francisco Giants Foundation in 2018 for her work with Aim High, a program that expands opportunities for students and their teachers through tuition-free summer learning enrichment, and was recently granted CAHPERD's Health Teacher of the Year Award for 2021. Her work has been featured by many media outlets, including the New York Times, US Today, NPR, KQED, and PBS. Let's listen to the interview. So, hi, Shafia, welcome.
Shafia Zaloom: (01:57)
Hi, thanks for having me.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (01:59)
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on! So I know you because our daughters go to the same school and we were just kind of chatting, and I had to know about the work you were doing as a sex and health educator with adolescence, and you are working at a school locally here. You also wrote a book called Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between, which is right on point for what's going on right now and especially what I'm seeing in my practice. So I really wanted to learn more from you about your work, and first off, I always like to ask people about how they got to doing the work that they're doing today, or the evolution of their thinking.
Shafia Zaloom: (02:35)
Well, I've been teaching this for 30 years, so it started a long time ago. When I got out of school, I sort of fell into being a social worker. I started as a social worker. I got a lot of onsite professional development and training. I was working with dual and triple diagnosed youth who were in residential treatment as an alternative to incarceration. So a level 11 group home, all were gang related, gang affiliated, and in treatment for drug addiction. It was a pretty intense time and I was young and had a lot of energy and really had an incredibly positive experience. The young people I was working with -- I'm sure you would understand -- were all young people who had experienced harm as well as caused harm. And as I got to know the kids in my caseload and work with them more and really sort of gain experience in what I was doing, I realized there were a few things that stood out to me as reasons why they ended up where they were.
Shafia Zaloom: (03:43)
And a lot of it had to do with resources, of course. Having a lack of positive adults and guidance in their lives, dysfunctional relationships, as well as not having a very positive school context to which they could resource adults and find those things elsewhere. So, when I started to feel the burnout after several years of working so intensely with these kids, I thought, "Okay, I really wanna go into prevention versus this intervention all the time." Because I was also thinking of my own life and something that was sustainable for myself. And in my own life, relationships and education made the biggest difference in my own trajectory. So that's why I turned to health education. And health ed at the time was really sort of a new thing. People were pioneering health in the way that it's being taught now more so. It's more sort of a progressive beginning.
Shafia Zaloom: (04:47)
I was hired at Marin Academy by Bodie Brizendine, who was also a new head of school, and said, "I want a psychodynamic, psycho-educational classroom in which teens can wrestle with the real issues that they're dealing with on a daily basis. Not like the Mean Girls movie with the coach that was like, "If you have sex, you'll get chlamydia and die." Right? So we built this program together, and it was really exciting, and that sort of launched my career in education.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (05:18)
Oh, wonderful. Great. So it sounds like you got a lot more depth in the dynamic that you were teaching in and educating and helping them process it.
Shafia Zaloom: (05:26)
A hundred percent. Yeah, for sure. And she really empowered me to do my job. You know, I do national consulting and I'll go into a lot of schools that say they want this, but they're not willing to put the resources, and the time, and, you know, the scheduling and all that sort of stuff that needs to happen behind it, and Bodie really did. And it was great. It was super exciting in so many ways, for sure.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (05:52)
I'd love to hear your thoughts on health education and particularly, you know, adolescents. I do a lot of work with adolescents and I do a lot of family work. Oftentimes, parents -- these were their little kids a few years ago. They were very non-sexual and now they're becoming more sexual, maybe, dating or hooking up. Or they might be making TikTok videos and looking cute, dancing around, things like that. And helping adolescents navigate through puberty to help them have a good, healthy relationship -- a sex positive relationship -- while at the same time also addressing parents' concerns and helping them be a resource and be someone that kids can turn to without reacting and trying to quell, or shame, or so on. I mean, it's such an important time. Tell me a little bit about your thoughts or how you approach this in working with the kids.
Shafia Zaloom: (06:51)
I think part of my response is, I'm going to model the language and the way by which I talk to young people as well as their parents about this, because that might be helpful. I just wanna recognize, I know the audience here is therapists, you know, mostly therapists. Being familiar with therapy myself and with therapeutic models, I feel like this sexuality conversation in many ways is a huge opportunity to teach as much as it is to engage in whatever type of therapy you are doing with the young person you're working with, because they aren't getting this education in many places in their lives. And so it serves them through their sessions to acquire medically accurate sex-positive information.
Shafia Zaloom: (07:40)
When it comes to the approach, I always talk about normalizing things, right? That we are all sexual beings from birth to death -- even folks who might identify as asexual or ace. As kids start to express their sexuality in different ways, it can be really challenging for parents, because we are also pioneers when it comes to sex positivity. Many of us who have school-aged children -- and mine are a little older now, right? I have a daughter in college, a son who's an upperclassman in high school, and then a middle school kid -- no matter what their age, we didn't get these talks. We didn't have a lot of this. It's a generational thing that's been passed down. The sociopolitical historical context of this is pretty shame-based and stigmatized. It's hard to in this current culture as well, where adults also are inundated or buy into this sort of effortless perfection.
Shafia Zaloom: (08:46)
"I have to be the perfect parent. I can't mess up. I can't say that I'm wrong." You know, "Vulnerability is weakness. It's not strength." You know, all these sort of cultural messages that get in the way of our capacity to do this effectively with our kids. I think the first piece is just being really compassionate and generous and gracious with ourselves. I think that's so important. And to take the time to think about our own sex education, what our values are, where they came from, what we wanna pass on to our children and what we wanna change and make different, and to get that clarity ourselves. And to talk that through with our friends or our partner or whomever, so that we actually get some practice. And that's gonna be to our kids' benefit.
Shafia Zaloom: (09:34)
You mentioned becoming the ask-able parent, right? I think that really starts when kids are young. Now it's never too late -- If you have the opportunity to start with your small person in your home, I say, go for it. People suddenly get nervous because they feel it's about sex and that's inappropriate. It's actually not, if you do it in an age appropriate way. If you have questions about that across the developmental stages and how we talk about concepts of consent, what does that look like in the kindergarten classroom? Things like that, or before bedtime or during bath time with a young child, we can talk about it. But I would say the mantra in the approach is to be straightforward and honest and to not be afraid of being positive.
Shafia Zaloom: (10:29)
I think there's a lot of misinformation out there that somehow if we talk about this and kids know, then they'll do. There's no empirical evidence to support that whatsoever. In fact, the inverse is true. If we empower young people with the correct words, with a normalized vocabulary and context in which they can have conversations about their body and being in charge of the body and how they feel in their body when they are in relationships with other people, with family members, with friends, you're really setting the stage for building upon that. I always tell parents -- and I think this is helpful, and therapists know -- that it's really about scaffolding. Across time you're collecting moments, it's the value of small victories. And then you're hanging things on that scaffolding as you go along.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (11:32)
Building upon, you know, kind of adding to.
Shafia Zaloom: (11:35)
And think layers, like of an onion. And I think also remembering that all people need an environment free of judgment and shame to share with open honesty. What we want as parents -- and this is also what therapists are so good at -- is to become experts in really awesome questions that inspire reflection, thinking. I think parents think sex education is always about genitals and the mechanics of sex and all that sort of stuff, and it's not. The majority of healthy sexuality and relationship education is really about values, right -- your family values. Parents are the primary sexuality educator in a child's life. They need to hear that, like kids and parents need to hear that. And that they're not the only ones.
Shafia Zaloom: (12:36)
For therapists, I always recommend, in the space that you're creating that's a safe space, making sure that there are clues that kids can pick up on that indicate you are safe in regards to a sexual context. So do you have a rainbow flag somewhere, right? You have love is love stickers on your laptop. You know, little details like that are what kids look for to tell them, "Oh, this person may be accepting and safe." I think sometimes we miss that. As people who provide guidance to young people, I think those visual cues are very important and ones that they're gonna be looking at. And how diverse is your own vocabulary when it comes to what the young people are seeing in their feed? How they're talking about social justice, how they're talking about sexuality, what the issues are -- how up to date are you with all of that information?
Dr. Keith Sutton: (13:45)
Definitely. You know, you said something really important. Particularly around the parents sometimes focusing on the genital information, one of the things that I teach with therapists and training around adolescence is helping go beyond the sex talk and about relationships and how we relate to each other -- how you tell somebody you like them, how you tell somebody you don't like them -- all these aspects and really kind of expanding it from there. Because it's not just about the sex, it's about in relationship. And I think that that's such an important piece that sometimes people forget.
Shafia Zaloom: (14:21)
Yeah, I think this default to what is scientific or clinical or medical, parents, and as adults, we all want to sort of check those boxes, right? But what kids really need, and I find this in my work with them, is, there's a lot of assumption that people make around kids understanding what values actually mean and what they look, sound and feel like in practice and in relationship. Especially if you have a young person who comes into your practice in middle school and maybe you're using the word respect a lot, but haven't taken the time to say, "So what's your definition of respect?" I'll have a room of 100 eighteen year olds and they're talking about respect, I'll say, "Okay. So how many of you have been taught to respect yourselves and others like your whole life?" Every single hand goes up, right? Every single hand.
Shafia Zaloom: (15:13)
I say, "How many of you are confident in giving me a definition of what that means?" Every hand goes down. And there's a lot of misconception that somehow respect is treating people how you would wanna be treated, but it's actually not, it's treating people how they wanna be treated. And those nuances can make a difference for kids. And kids will say, you know, "Shafia, I know what the definition of consent is, but what does that actually mean for me on Saturday night?" Like... what does that... I don't even know. But you know, my parents are constantly saying, or people in my life are always saying, "Respect women, respect women." It's like, well, what does that mean? Because if he's reading from that cultural script, it's not what we're at, what we're thinking, right? So I find exploring with kids, what that really looks, sounds, and feels like in their relationships in concrete ways, because cognitively that's where they are, is what's going to be most of effective.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (16:13)
Well, I think the issue of respect is so important because, I don't know if I've got the correct definition, but the way I think about it too, is that respecting the other as an individual with different needs, wants, and opinions is recognizing that they can exist and have self worth in and of themselves. But I think like you're saying, it's not just treating them as you'd like to be treated, but finding out how they'd like to be treated, and that they have a right to those opinions and those things. Like you're saying, I think there comes consent of finding where you make that bridge between what your needs and wants are and what their needs and wants are, and if that connects.
Shafia Zaloom: (16:56)
Yeah. And I talk a lot about being attuned to your partner and what that means. And the values -- I used respect as an example, but I actually tend to sometimes talk to kids about that. They bring that word up a lot and then I try to expand their vocabulary, because I find it's really limited in accurately expressing an emotional embodied experience for all people, adults included. We have sort of a default to the trifecta of mad sad and great, or mad, sad, glad, you know, whatever. And so how to give them a more nuanced vocabulary, but also to talk about, very specifically, things like empathy, dignity. I'm really big on resurrecting dignity as a word and a concept. And I do a whole class on how to ask someone out on a date and we talk about how success is not getting someone to say yes, but both people getting to walk away with dignity.
Shafia Zaloom: (17:59)
And the focus is really on that. It's a pretty basic concept of feeling like someone's treated you like you have value. I feel like that allows for a lot of individuality and differentiation too -- amongst students or clients or whoever it is you're speaking to -- is this concept of dignity, and what that is and means, and what gets in the way and what the cultural narrative is dictating that sort of shapes and molds that in a way that doesn't necessarily serve kids. You know, in that big developmental task that they have during adolescence and what younger kids are aspiring to, which is to figure out how to have a healthy, intimate, sustained relationship.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (18:48)
Definitely. And I think that's something that you were mentioning earlier about the aspects of social justice. I mean, you know, gender, sexuality, sexual violence, consent. All these pieces are brought into social justice and sexual orientation, gender orientation. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more about those pieces, because I think that that's also something that is oftentimes confusing for therapists and parents, especially when kids are more fluid in their gender or exploring their gender, their sexuality. I don't know about your experience at all, but I've almost been noticing just my own kids in middle school and with some of the other kids that it's almost like heterosexuality is almost not being the norm anymore. Almost kind of starting out saying, I don't know what I'm gonna be, you know? Rather than like, I'm not gay. More like just again, being more open, and kind of a process of discovery. I don't know if that's just a couple little samples here in Marin county or whatever.
Shafia Zaloom: (19:58)
You know, I think that's true. I think that we live in the bay area, which is sort of Mecca when it comes to those sort of things. In a lot of my work now that's not to say that it isn't in on the internet and in the social media space. And therefore there are kids in different places, in different contexts that maybe aren't so, you know, anti-cis-heteronormative, and more inclusive and friendly. Or if they live in a queer-antagonistic sort of context, they're able to find affirmation through the internet virtually. But that's also really hard because there's this world that isn't your reality, in the virtual space. And then you're at home and in relationship with people who are in school, with people who may not be as accepting. I do find that I find that here all the time, I think it's really refreshing. It's something that I teach, that our relationship with sexuality and understanding it is an ongoing relationship.
Shafia Zaloom: (20:58)
And as we journey through life, it will be shaped and formed by the people we meet, the education we get, you know, all those sort of things, the relationships we're in. I think it's really beautiful how kids are really open. I think it's hard for some parents. Sometimes, and they're not quite sure what to do with that. And I see a full spectrum of parents who wanna support, but don't know how to talk about it, and then just default to quiet, which also communicates a message that they don't intend, but it is there. And then there are other parents who are so excited to be the supportive parent, that they almost ascribe the identity to their child based on an inkling that they're exploring and questioning. I think it's so important for all of us to just let that reveal itself, like create this space and give the kids the reflection, like tools and questions to ask themselves, to allow that to be revealed in a way that feels like their truth.
Shafia Zaloom: (21:57)
And I always tell parents, depending on the developmental stage, just because a kid says "I'm bi" or "I'm gay" or "I'm fluid" or whatever it is, depending on their age, that's very developmentally appropriate to say in a way that feels like it's permanent. But we know that it may not be because developmentally there's so much left to take place and happen. And so I think, you know, for parents, it's figuring out their own feelings, right? Making sure they have appropriate boundaries and being accepting and just open and creating those spaces so it can be revealed and unfold at the direction, in some ways, of the kid. Like allow the kid to be an expert in their own experience. I think when we give kids that option, it's super helpful.
Shafia Zaloom: (22:57)
The young people I talk to and work with in different states, in different contexts, especially in politically more conservative cultural frameworks, it's still hard. There's a lot of transphobia. There's a lot of homophobia. There's a lot of misogyny. You know, the hyper masculinity that's out there. So it can be tough. And a lot of kids also are just reading from cultural scripts without a lot of intervention or questioning, but not criticizing. Not questioning in a way that's judgmental and asking why, but rather to just say, you know, so what's coming up for you and what can you tell me about this and help me understand that. Just be super curious.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (23:56)
Definitely. You know I think it's also so hard for parents. One of the things that I do, I integrate some attachment-based family therapy for adolescents and really kind of help the kids to talk and help the parents really, to listen, to activate that attachment instinct. And, you know, conversations around sexuality can oftentimes be so hard for the parents. I remember one family I was working with the mother with listening, and the daughter, she was saying, "Oh, I'm dating this guy." And she said, "Oh, what do you like about him?" She said, "He's hot." And she said, "Oh, that's nice, anything more about him?" "Oh, he's, he's a jerk. He treats me really bad, but he's really hot." And she just had to kind of sit there with that and say, oh, tell me more about that.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (24:39)
And really just through the conversation, just by really listening, it created some space and her daughter was kind of talking about her ambivalence about whether she wanted to be or not. But oftentimes for many parents, the anxiety goes up and we want to protect and we get scared and we're like, ugh. You know. And of course we want to check that things are safe, but you know, oftentimes it's hard to create that space. And also as therapists, you know, sometimes our inner parent, mama bear, Papa bear, or whatever it might be kind of kicks in. And so again, finding ways to create that space, to help them process and support.
Shafia Zaloom: (25:12)
Yeah. And I find it's really, it can be really challenging too, making that call of how much do we allow a kid to have some independence and agency and make mistakes. We know negative consequences are down the road, right? To have those experiences and to learn themselves and/or to ask them questions, get them to reflect, and interject our own thoughts and opinions about where they may be headed. And if that's in their best interest, I mean, it's a tough call. And I think post, you know, still navigating this pandemic, post sort of sheltering in place and all those sort of things, and still seeing the unravel of that and the trauma, it's like the death by a thousand cuts. I have a daughter who was the class of Spring 2020, who was a graduating senior and, and just the health issues, the arrested development that we're now seeing kids play catch up with, the lack of social interaction and all the learning that comes with that, you know, the morality clinic that recesses not happening for so long.
Shafia Zaloom: (26:22)
I'm just getting so many inquiries in my consulting practice, because I go to different states across the country to teach and talk to people. So many people are scrambling. So many folks in schools say, kids need... Like we need to teach them how it's okay to touch as they come into community in more physical ways again. What's okay, what's not, how do they flirt? And I think having been so, intensely in the digital space for so long because of COVID, you know, I used to tell kids, you have to think of the digital space as an extension of your personal space when it comes to self-regulation making decisions about what to post, how to treat people, because that really matters. You know, all those sort of things, and not hiding behind sort of this perceived anonymity or something's gonna disappear and not be there, so there's no consequence. I find that shifted, because kids' personal space was the digital space for so long.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (27:29)
Yeah. That was the extension of themselves.
Shafia Zaloom: (27:31)
Yes. And now they're in physical, real time space with each other and they're realizing they're using these skills they had in the digital space that they honed, but they don't work in the real time, in the physical space. And so, it's a lot. It's a lot. And for so many kids too, I find that social shifting that tended to happen in adolescents during the ninth and 10th grade year, finding your people in your friends and then settling into that for 11th and 12th is still happening. Kids being iced out of friend groups, kids feeling like they had this really deep relationship with someone and then now it's like, meh. And sort of how they're trying to figure those things out a lot. They had no agency, a lot of kids, because who they were social with was determined by how COVID conscious your parents were.
Shafia Zaloom: (28:31)
So it's just interesting to see how the mess is sorting itself out. Definitely. And it's so great. They can all be in school, and depending on where you live, and ours are still wearing masks, which I think we're hitting a threshold on, but yeah, there's a lot to sort through and talk to them about.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (28:55)
Yeah, definitely sorting all those pieces. That was interesting. I was talking to a second grade teacher the other day about the effects of the pandemic. And she was saying, one thing that she's noticed is that at least those kids seem to have more compassion and are more patient and flexible than other years that she's experienced. And, you know, it's kind of almost like a byproduct of this. This generation has had to like switch and move and kind of, you know, deal with all these big, big changes. But I think, like you're saying, yeah. I mean, I imagine too, that one effect that must have on sexuality and sexual development, you know, especially if these kids really are only online, right -- and there's a lot online -- particularly not having maybe some of those conversations or being with or flirting or things like that.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (29:42)
And, and kind of, getting some distorted ideas around sexuality and all those aspects. I wonder too, like, you know, I just finished reading Come as You Are, Nagoski's book, which is amazing, love it. Like, it's so good. I'm actually in the process of going towards the ASEC certification. But yeah, just so many myths or so many misunderstandings that happen for so many people that so many adults have because they didn't get this information when they were younger. You know, pleasure at different stages, not just orgasm, or you know, looking at how context affects, or the concordance between genitalia and our brain and all these kind of things that are so oftentimes not connected or not known or this education. Tell me a little bit about that. I mean, especially, I think it mostly affects, you know, female born women or different gender-identified because oftentimes it -- also, of course, boys and men -- but oftentimes there's a lot of miscommunication or myths, or really just kind of mistruths that are, that are oftentimes told to create this, this confusing context.
Shafia Zaloom: (31:06)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, a lot of kids land in my class and they have to unlearn before they can relearn a lot. Emily is one of my personal rock stars, I think, just so fabulous. And I use so much of her work in my own teaching. And you know, one thing I like, she has this metaphor for sexuality, which is the garden, right? Like she talks about the garden and, you know, I always think it's important to empower young people when it's age appropriate and context dependent, you know, context appropriate about how we all have a sexual accelerator. We all have a sexual break and what that means and how that factors into things, but also the garden. And I love the garden because it gives kids something concrete to actually hold onto, to talk about.
Shafia Zaloom: (31:52)
A lot of times it can feel too intimate, too personal, but if you have something like, oh, I've created this collage, which is my garden, and this represents this, and this represents that. And Emily talks about how, you know, we can go -- as you become an adolescent or begin to become older and take more responsibility for your sexuality -- that you can go row by row and actually look and see what's been planted there and what you wanna pull out and what you wanna put in. I always talk to kids too, about what's the criteria for someone coming into your garden? What can they take? What can they leave? You know, all those sort of things actually adapted that, with her permission of course, for my book, that passage. And then the concordance thing, I think for all genders is so important, especially if you have young people who are watching porn, which is so pervasive these days.
Shafia Zaloom: (32:40)
Because I'll get kids who come in who are confused because I mean, porn's a whole conversation and the sexual science of it and the delivery mechanism and the reward response. But I'll get some kids who have built up a tolerance when it comes to arousal to the porn watching. So what they have to watch to achieve arousal is in many ways, super intensely misogynist, intensely aggressive, and violent, and they'll come in and they'll be scared. And they'll say, you know, is this what I like? Is this what I want? And so in my class, I always talk about arousal, non concordance, and a great example of illustrating that is the random erection in math class, right. Something sexually relevant. You know, I talk about the sexual relevant part of your brain and the desire and wanting part of your brain, and most times they're aligned and sometimes they're not. And you know, maybe something sexually relevant happens in math class, a hormone surge or your pants brushing your genitals in some way, and your brain goes, "Ooh, sexually relevant!" But your other part of your brain's like, "Uh, not in the middle of math class."
Dr. Keith Sutton: (33:49)
Yeah. I'm in math class. Let's not turn on.
Shafia Zaloom: (33:51)
And it's huge also in a gendered way when it comes to sexual violence, because we used to promote this idea that boys could not be assaulted if they had an erection during the time of sexual activity. And if there's some sort of sexual stimulation that's sexually relevant happening, that does not mean that a boy necessarily wants this happening to happen. So there's a lot of important, very relevant ways by which we need to talk about concordance with kids. And why it's more important to pay attention to people's words than their genitals.
Shafia Zaloom: (34:27)
So, you know, there's that piece. And then the other part of pleasure, you know, I always talk about the sexual accelerator. The sexual break is really about allowing alleviating the break so the accelerator can go on its own than just like ramming on the accelerator. And that the end all be all, which is the cultural narrative, is not necessarily orgasm for all people. And that many different types of body people, you know, will enjoy a lot of other ways by which we explore the aspects of our sexuality that have yet to be discovered, and what a joy that can be. And so I think talking about pleasure, balancing responsibility and pleasure is so important for young people, empowering them with the correct information.
Shafia Zaloom: (35:23)
And that requires for busy parents -- because I know how that is, I know we both do, right -- to have to educate themselves on a lot that they didn't get. And part of when I, you know, what motivated me to write my book was I would be traveling and go to all these different schools in different states. And the questions were always the same. Not only for kids, but also parents. And then parents would come up to me after the talk and say, thank you so much. I learned so much, and this is what's going on with my kid. Do you have any suggestions? And we discuss, and they say, wait a minute and then turn record on their phone and hold it at up to my face.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (35:57)
Oh geez.
Shafia Zaloom: (35:59)
Because they needed language and they needed strategies. And I was like, okay, how can we, how can we create like, a handbook, right? For folks when it comes to this stuff with all the essential elements that in my own experience, in teaching thousands of kids about this stuff and listening to them, like hearing all their stories, which is the crux of the book, like what parents need to know, what are the questions they can ask? Where are the resources to go for more information? Like, because we're busy. A lot going on.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (36:33)
Yeah, and I love to, I mean, you know, I got your book. And then when I first started looking at the table of contents, you know, I mean it starts out with consent, right? Yes means yes, what we mean when we talk about consent, and then chapter two, about the legal rights and sexual harassment and assault and, you know, chapter three, you're good, how to teach consent and keeping it sexy. All these aspects are so important. And then getting into expertise, gender pressure, porn, love, pleasure, sex, you know, all these kind of aspects and really helping parents to be able to have these conversations. And again, I think it's extremely helpful for therapists to be able to be thinking about this and how to have those conversations, because it's really focused on, you know, these are the necessary conversations that parents need to have with their kids.
Shafia Zaloom: (37:21)
Yeah. And I find, I really tried, for anyone who works with children that was sort of my audience as well as kids because the second half of every chapter is just the frequently asked questions I get from kids wherever I am teaching and stuff. And I answer in very brief, concise ways as if they had raised their hand in my class. And I really intended, and the audience for that is the kids, but also for adults, one who don't know that information and two to model the language that over the years I've found to be age appropriate and appropriate for an adult-child relationship. And that is accessible to kids, and just the right amount of information where they're not tuning out. Communicated the important points that need to be shared. I find that that's really the challenge for all of us who work with young people is that piece. And you know, for therapists in particular, I think just having some of that language, that's a little more current. I think for young people also, something that I wanted to just sort of make a plug for -- and I don't know that therapists are really doing this much because the focus is so much on sort of the internal life of the young person -- is how important it is to understand and know what your patient is binge watching.
Shafia Zaloom: (38:53)
What is they watching on TV? Because I think we really underestimate, the power and influence that that has and the opportunity it affords to talk about these issues and explore these issues by talking about characters as if they're people and the values associated with the relationships they have.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (39:17)
Definitely. Well, I think you're so right. Yeah. I was thinking of that myself because at least even with my own kids, some of the conversations have been helpful with watching videos. Like there's the Oprah one where there's a therapist talking with a mother and a child, and talking about sex, and watching that with, you know, my kids and then talking about that kind of helps almost stimulate that conversation. Or, it was a good one on, My Kid Would Never Do That on Dateline 2020 where, you know, somebody's like, "Hey, come and get in the ice cream truck with me!" and so on. And like, you know, they have hidden cameras seeing if the kids do it or not. And again, watching that with my own kids and then having these conversations around safety and, and all those aspects. But like you're saying, yeah, finding out about the characters that they're watching or the stories or so on, and learning about those as therapists, because yeah, that can be kind of the medium for talking about these issues.
Shafia Zaloom: (40:14)
A hundred percent. And it really helps kids, I feel like, if you're talking about consent education. So I bring media into my class all the time, because that is the primary way by which I feel like young people are really learning about sort of gender dynamics and relationship and our personal dynamics and things like that. We never want to create a situation in which kids, like they have to have experiential context to participate in a meaningful way in our dialogue and it wouldn't be appropriate or responsible to ask kids, nor would I want them to share about their own personal experiences if they have them in a public way in a classroom. And we do have a level of confidentiality, but not one that's, you know, a set up in which kids are doing whatever, but more about sort of expecting kids not to exploit each other and trash talk each other, et cetera.
Shafia Zaloom: (41:04)
And you know, they're constantly feeding me these clips that I use in class. And so that's our shared experience, which is far more appropriate and easier to have substantive dialogue about. And just say like, okay so did you see, did they ask for consent? Let's talk about context. Context is everything in relationships. Did they get to walk away with their dignity? What would've made the difference? Is there a gender dynamic going on? If you substitute a gender with some other social identity, would something shift and change? Is there a double standard? You know, all those things that I think are great tools for young people to have, and really provide insight into how kids are thinking about what they're seeing, what they're watching, what their peers are also watching with them and that they then talk about.
Shafia Zaloom: (41:57)
And the experience of the binge, right. Like when we were younger, you had to wait a whole week where you could watch the next episode, but if you're watching a show and there's some content that's very deeply concerning that's out there and you're watching a show and your brain is developing, it's a multi-sensory experience. And the delivery mechanism typically through a computer or a phone or something like that is, you know, there's a dopamine reward response. Let's talk about that. What does that mean? Bringing that into their consciousness I think is huge. And I think it's a nice way to balance out sometimes and maybe provide a little levity or relief if things are getting really heavy and deep. Not to derail, if you're like on a trajectory with your patient and getting to something that's really gonna be a revelation and epiphany -- you know, like in those aha moments. But rather sometimes I feel like kids need that. To be able to access those other parts of themselves., because it's become such a huge part of their lives.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (43:13)
Definitely, yeah. And I'm wondering about, you know, we were talking a little bit before we got on about, you know, a lot of the issues around consent and around abuse and you made a good point about the non concordance with abuse and boys and erections. One in four girls, one in six boys, end up experiencing abuse, and of course, one of the important reasons to be talking to kids about it early, is because a lot of this oftentimes happens early, but also, of course, I work with lots of kids, young adults, adults who experience trauma through violence in their relationships, in with other kids their own age. I also have some that have ended up feeling accused and having to leave a school, because there was an issue that came up and such. And on the other side, someone really being hurt by another person and then again, the school, not really holding that confidentiality and again, also feeling like needing to leave after being a victim of violence.
Shafia Zaloom: (44:38)
Yeah. You know, my curricula has evolved in this way, in different ways around this, based on what I'm hearing from young people and what I'm seeing in terms of generational shifts around this sort of conversation and what's happening, and what's happening in the greater cultural dialogue as well as then how they're taking what they're seeing and applying it to their own lives, especially in the digital space. Because there's things like cancel culture and all this stuff, which is really intense and has some very long lasting consequences for all children, right? Like whether you are the person who's experienced sexual harm or you're the person who's causing the sexual harm, there's a lot to it. I think we can be very confusing. It can be very confusing for young people and it's in their best interest for the adults to actually draw like a distinct difference between a distinction between consent as being in the essential component of being attuned to your partner.
Shafia Zaloom: (45:39)
So you can experience pleasure in a really responsible way and enriching, loving, caring, reciprocal relationship grounded in authentic connection, even if it's just for physical gratification, right? And then there's consent. And I like to use a lot of analogies and metaphors with the kids I work with because they're such concrete thinkers and for a lot of them, these are really abstract concepts, right. And things that they're just trying to figure out, is that there's consent within a context of sexual violence. And you know, what's the correct appropriate language, what does it actually mean? What are our legal responsibilities and what are our ethical responsibilities? Because I feel like at least when I'm teaching, I want, you know, consent is fundamental, it's essential, it's so important. It's what makes sexual activity legal and protects the fundamentals of human dignity.
Shafia Zaloom: (46:36)
And we wanna teach our kids to go beyond consent. Consent in many ways we have to evolve out of this, focus on the semantics around consent to encourage kids. You know, they gotta understand that's the floor, not the ceiling. Like they need to aspire beyond consent to ethical and good sex. And not good sex in the way that the popular media puts it out. And I have an activity, I take them through to understand what good sex actually is. And they all actually don't necessarily need to have that experience to understand because it's an expression, it's communication. It's like the qualities of a really good conversation. And so, I tell them I'm like, we gotta aspire beyond just not a felony. Like this is so important.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (47:22)
I think it was a, I saw a TikTok or something and it was a comedian or something saying like, "I don't want consent, I want enthusiasm!" You know, consent is just like, okay, yeah, you can do this. Like, that's not what we're going for. Like, "Yes, I would love to do that with you!" is kind of what we wanna be going for -- that somebody is excited and wants to do these things rather than like, okay, I'll do this.
Shafia Zaloom: (47:44)
Yeah. And you can have a consensual sexual experience that is disappointing, embarrassing, that's boring, that's regrettable, like all those things too. And so I think it's really confusing for kids, with some of the ways we approach this conversation. You know, I think it can feel a bit daunting as well as it's exciting, right. Because we want, I believe we all want that for our children. Right? Like we want them to have caring, loving relationships. And we all know there's decades of research that tells us it's not your GPA or where you go to school, that's going to determine the quality of your life. It's the quality of your relationships. Like this is such an important piece. And so when it comes to consent, you know, context is everything, right? So context, I'll talk about for kids, a way to help them figure this out would be, okay, let's say you and your friends are walking down whatever street, you know, in Marin.
Shafia Zaloom: (48:45)
Maybe it's Fourth Avenue if you're San Rafael right. San Francisco, Eighth Street, whatever. And you, you've had a long academic day and you're trying to blow off steam. So you're, horsing around. So you're kind of, you know, elbowing each other, maybe poking at each other a little bit. There's some banter going back and forth. Everyone's on board with the banter. There's laughter there's joy. It feels like a stress relief. It's bonding because you have the shared experience. And it's joyful. Right. So that's the horseplay that's happening. Let's say some rando on the street sees what's happening amongst you and your friends. And they say, you know what, I wanna do that too, because that looks awesome. And they come right up to you and they start doing the same exact thing that you're doing with your friends. And I'll say, so what's the emotional embodied experience of that? Surprise, get away, violation, fear, all those things. And I'll say, you know, it's the same thing. He was doing the same. That person was doing the same thing they saw you doing with each other. But it's a different context. Context is everything when it comes to your emotional embodied experiences. So I think in having these conversations around sexual violence, that's also why you can revoke consent at any time because context is variable.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (50:02)
Yeah. And I like that you referenced that there's a little cartoon kind of showing like, somebody, you know, kind of waking somebody up with like a stereo at night and saying like, "Yeah, I said, I like that song, but I don't wanna hear it when I'm sleeping!" Or somebody saying like, "You know, hey, you took my car and like, well you lent it to me last week so I can have it anytime I want," you know, and kind of making these analogies that I think are really helpful in helping them kind of wrap their head around this idea of consent and, and being able to revoke consent.
Shafia Zaloom: (50:34)
Right. And, I think that's, you know, an important piece. A lot of people think we have to go immediately. We go immediately to the sexual violence, like assault and harassment and all that sort of stuff. We'll get there. You have to lay the groundwork first. I just think that's so important. And, it's scaffolding again. Right. We know this is how kids learn. That's why they take arithmetic before they take algebra. You know, it's logical when we think of it that way, but we don't tend to approach it that way. And the consent conversation is no different, and how we treat each other really matters. And you know, when it comes to sexual communication, I always say to kids, think of a bear. So, you know, I'll have every kid in the class think of a bear, like the animal, a bear. And we all know what a bear is. They know what I'm asking for of them. And when we start talking about our bears, they all come up with different bears. Of course, Yogi bear, Bernstein bears, a polar bear, black bear.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (51:33)
A picture of a bear in their mind is different.
Shafia Zaloom: (51:35)
Yes, exactly. And I'll say, okay, so what is it that your bear is doing? What does it look like? And the bears are all different and up to all kinds of different things. And I'll say, so what determined the bear that came up in your imagination? "Well, I just, I at a national park this summer," or "I saw a documentary in science class" or "I was sitting in my room and my childhood stuffed bear was sitting right in front of me" or "I just had gummy bears" a, you know, snack context, right. Our experiences. So sexual communication, which includes consent, is think of a bear. We cannot assume when we are engaging in that communication, that what our bear looks sounds and feels like is the same as someone else. And so you have to take the time to ask. And another analogy you might have seen this in the book would be french fries, right?
Shafia Zaloom: (52:22)
So you talk to kids about French fries. It's pretty universal. Anybody, adults. You know, play at up, what kind of fries do you like, what are your sides, et cetera. You have this big plate of fries. You go and sit down at a table of family and or friends, and what happens? Hands come darting in to pick off your fries. And I'll say, okay, without assuming context, how many of you are a hundred percent okay with that? Very rarely do you ever get anyone who raises their hand. And then that gives you something to deconstruct, right? Like, okay. So what is it that's not okay about it? Well, they didn't ask, what does asking express? They recognize that it's yours. They belong to me. What gets in the way of saying something? I don't wanna draw attention to myself, I'm afraid I'm gonna be judged. It's just french fries. You know, they're my parent and I have to let them have my fries, you know, all these sort of things, right. I mean, you get where I'm going. Not to minimize.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (53:20)
No, I think it's, I think they're great ways of having these conversations, you know, that kind of takes it away from something that might be so fraught with emotion because of the taboo or because of the anxiety around it or so on. Because I think that that's that. And like you're saying that that's the foundational piece, is kind of this consent and kind of knowledge of our needs and our effect on others, and you know, kind of building upon that. And I think that's something that, you know, therapists can really take away because that's something that therapists can have conversations around with clients also, in relationship to the kids that they're working with and helping parents to have these conversations too.
Shafia Zaloom: (54:02)
Yeah. And I feel like for therapists in particular, who are such experts in asking these important, good questions, right? Like is actually taking some time to pause and to say, well, did you feel like, how did you know you had consent? Is that groundwork prior to say, so help me understand what you think consent is, right? Like what are the ways you can give it? What are the ways you can't? And just taking them through that exercise so that you're getting to know what their bear is, which is what you do on a greater scale. But when it comes to sexuality, they don't have these conversations in the same ways that they do of other areas in their life. And so it's really up to all of us who have that understanding to guide to that deeper understanding that, that broader vocabulary, so that they are being educated at the same time that they're, you know, engaged in a therapeutic relationship. And then, being really concrete. So a lot of times I find this with kids, I'll say, so what's, you know, sexual harassment is about conduct. Assault is about contact. And we talk about what's included, but I'll say, okay, you know, and then there's coercion. Which I find is what you really have to focus on with kids. That's called peer pressure, right?
Shafia Zaloom: (55:21)
And then leveraging social power dynamics. And a lot of kids, I'll say what's a social power dynamic. They'll say employer, an employee. It's an adult version. And I'll say, okay, not that kids don't work, but you know, it depends. And I'll say, so what does that look like in high school? Like what's a social power dynamic in high school. Well, a popular kid in a non-popular team, or varsity team captain and a freshman recruit or senior and yeah.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (55:51)
Because power effects, consent in all these aspects. So, so significantly.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (55:57)
Yeah, boy, I could talk with you all the day about this. It's such a huge topic and I really appreciate you taking the time today. You know, I think this is really helpful and will definitely encourage folks to get your book and read more about it and have more conversations. Because again, you're talking about so many different ways to expand this conversation beyond like, you know, here's the information about sex or genitals or so on because it is so big. So I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
Shafia Zaloom: (56:29)
Thank you for your interest. I enjoyed it.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (56:31)
Great. Thanks a lot. Take care.
Shafia Zaloom: (56:34)
You too.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (56:35)
Bye.
Dr. Keith Sutton: (56:36)
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